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Old 07-08-2011, 11:17 AM   #41
safisher
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Default Re: Question about cutting a throat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langy View Post
RAW GURPS has no way of silencing your victim
Ah, but that's not true. MA: FCCS explicitly deals with this.

Quote:
he can still yell for help even though his neck was just cut in half, and he'll still take forever to die from blood loss even in the worst possible situation.
That's pretty much up to the GM. First, it's pretty difficult to yell, when 1) your mouth is covered, and 2) your windpipe is severed. GMs are free to treat that how they want. Further, if a successful sentry removal attack hits you it's a good chance you'll be surprised (mental stunned) and then you'll quickly be in shock as you bleed out (shocked and stunned via a major wound, perhaps multiple ones as the attacker keeps stabbing -- and assuming bleeding rules are used, you keep bleeding). In addition, there are rules for fright checks for wounds.

All of this, I think, indicates some impairment to either the ability to yell, or the capacity to decide to yell.

Quote:
Also: I had thought a large knife was something a bit bigger than a combat knife (more along the lines of a machete), hence why I used a small knife in my example.
No, large knife is a typical military issue combat knife.

Quote:
The All-Out Grapple and Strike maneuver (which I had completely missed) also looks like it'll be much more useful for this.
Yes.

Quote:
then all right, sentry removal isn't as badly done in GURPS as I had thought. I still think that you should get a bonus to hit a location that you've immobilized via grappling, that severe bleeding is too slow, and that there should be some mention in the RAW that grappling the jaw silences a person.
There's a difference between your opinion, and not understanding the rules as they currently stand. All too often, the problem on these forums is the latter.
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Old 07-08-2011, 11:19 AM   #42
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Default Re: Question about cutting a throat.

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Combat knives require ST because just about all of the techniques are either about inserting the knife and turning/ripping it against resistance, or sawing with the thing.
I'll just point out that this is not academic. There are readily accessible images of this exact situation. And I'll leave it at that . . .
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Old 07-08-2011, 11:32 AM   #43
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Default Re: Question about cutting a throat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by safisher View Post
Ah, but that's not true. MA: FCCS explicitly deals with this.
Where? All I've seen is mention of holds that hold the mouth shut, not that these holds impose Cannot Speak/Mute, or that cutting through the neck results in Cannot Speak/Mute (except through a very lucky roll on the neck major wounds table). As a GM, I'd probably say 'yeah, he can't talk', but I'd rather see explicit mention of that.


Quote:
There's a difference between your opinion, and not understanding the rules as they currently stand. All too often, the problem on these forums is the latter.
True enough. Do you disagree that it would make sense for a knife swing to the neck to be easier if you've already grappled a target's jaw than if you just tried swinging from behind, though? Isn't part of the point of grabbing the guy's jaw to make it easier to hit the neck? I'd like to see rules for this (though, as I've mentioned, I dabbled with a house rule that doing so halves the hit location penalty).
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Old 07-08-2011, 11:34 AM   #44
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Default Re: Question about cutting a throat.

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Originally Posted by Langy View Post
Also: I had thought a large knife was something a bit bigger than a combat knife (more along the lines of a machete), hence why I used a small knife in my example.
.
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No. Large knives are shorter than shortswords.
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Old 07-08-2011, 11:42 AM   #45
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Default Re: Question about cutting a throat.

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Originally Posted by Langy View Post
Huh. Hadn't noticed that.

Still, it's lacking rules that say 'grappling the jaw means you can't speak', which is what I was saying. RAW GURPS has no way of silencing your victim - he'll shout out, which is something you can do if you are mentally stunned (which involves taking the Do Nothing maneuver, which allows speech). Wouldn't be very realistic if surprise or fear would mean you can't scream, since surprise and fear resulting in screaming is pretty much exactly what happens in real life.

So, yes, it takes a while to kill a guy in real life - that's fine, but he can still yell for help even though his neck was just cut in half, and he'll still take forever to die from blood loss even in the worst possible situation.

Also: I had thought a large knife was something a bit bigger than a combat knife (more along the lines of a machete), hence why I used a small knife in my example.

The All-Out Grapple and Strike maneuver (which I had completely missed) also looks like it'll be much more useful for this.

Anyways, if grappling the jaw actually silenced opponents, and if ST really should impact knife damage that much (which I'm simply dubious about, unless strong people utilize different techniques from weaker people), then all right, sentry removal isn't as badly done in GURPS as I had thought. I still think that you should get a bonus to hit a location that you've immobilized via grappling, that severe bleeding is too slow, and that there should be some mention in the RAW that grappling the jaw silences a person.
To address the issues in your last paragraph:

GURPS does have a way to silence your opponent. RAW, both choke hold and face grapple silence opponents. Please see Martial Arts: Fairbairn Close Combat Systems pg 11.

Regarding a bonus to hit a location that you've immobilized via grappling. What you get is that your opponent gets penalties to defense (or if you've grappled from the rear, no defenses at all). This means that you can use Telegraphic Attacks for +4 to hit with little consequence.

ST matters, it makes the difference on if you can get through muscle and sinew, or if your cuts are shallow. But let's give your soldier ST12 holding a Large Knife (1d-1imp/1dswing). And a Very Fine Knife (+2), Either using Smash and Grab or Mighty Blows Extra Effort for (+2), and if thrusting using a Reversed Grip for +1.

So, that is 1d+4imp or 1d+4cut on Neck Arteries....which has a x2.5 damage modifier.

So if you roll a 3 on that 1d, you are looking at 17hp damage. If you roll a 4 on that 1d, you are looking at 24hp damage.

For all the average sort of sentry you are attacking--
1) They are at less than 0 hp and must make an HT roll to avoid Unconsciousness. If they fail, they are out and are going to die from blood loss.
2) On a roll of 4+ for that damage, they are also at -HT hp and need to make a Death Roll...which if they fail means instant death.
3) This is a Major Wound. So they must make an HT roll to avoid Knockdown and Stunning.
4) If using all the Bleeding rules, then this person is bleeding out and will die without surgery. So they are going to die.

So you have a very good chance of knocking the person out in one second if not killing them. If you don't get them down in the first second, in the second second, a rapid strike should do it.
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Old 07-08-2011, 11:59 AM   #46
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Default Re: Question about cutting a throat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trooper6 View Post
To address the issues in your last paragraph:

GURPS does have a way to silence your opponent. RAW, both choke hold and face grapple silence opponents. Please see Martial Arts: Fairbairn Close Combat Systems pg 11.
That makes no mention at all of silencing opponents, only that it closes the mouth.

Quote:
Regarding a bonus to hit a location that you've immobilized via grappling. What you get is that your opponent gets penalties to defense (or if you've grappled from the rear, no defenses at all). This means that you can use Telegraphic Attacks for +4 to hit with little consequence.
If you're behind them, you can telegraphic attack at +4 to hit anyways - grappling doesn't provide any benefit in the to-hit. Thus, part of the reason for grappling (which is maneuvering the head so that the neck is exposed, and thus easier to hit) doesn't make any sense - it only serves to keep the opponents mouth closed. I dislike this.
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Old 07-08-2011, 12:00 PM   #47
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Default Re: Question about cutting a throat.

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Originally Posted by Langy View Post
Note that most characters probably won't do enough damage with a knife to the throat to kill, or even seriously injure, anyone. They'll be knocked down to about half of their normal HP, be bleeding, but still have a good few minutes to fight back, raise an alarm, etc.
.
I think you are mistaken. First of all, this is not a god way to remove a sentry because in real life, cutting the throat is loud and takes a long time for a person to die and the sentry can raise the alarm. the GURPS rules reflect this.

Veins and arteries (if cut) bleed for 1 HP per turn! For a typical 10 HT that is a maximum of 1 minute IF they make every roll to stay alive. A typical 10 ST using a knife might spen 1 FP to do xtra damage and all out attack for x-tra damage as well. This brings the knife damage up to 1d+3 with an average roll of 3-7. This translates to 6-14 damage and then shock penalties accumulate and stun and all theother wonderful injury rules that reduces defenses so the 2nd, 3rd and 4th attacks basically can't be defended against.

it is only in the movies that the cutting of a throat INSTANTLY kills a person. this is not realistic at all and even in the movies the people grab their throats and stare at the killer for some seconds before finally failing a roll to stay conscious. they are STILL alive at this point and are waiting to fail a roll to stay alive.

Sentry removal usually involves getting asentry prone, very quickly with his face in the dirt. this is accomplished by a grap of the crotch from behind and a forceful, forward shove to the back of the head, driving the victims face into the dirt. the body's automatic responce to a groind grab is an intake of air which keeps the victim quiet. The victim is now prone and pinned (pinning rules are brutal in gurps) Follow this with quick stabs to the kidneys or the brain stem (x3 or x4 damage for 9-21 damage on average using the numbers above)

this whole process can take 4-5 seconds, which is blindingly fast in the real world but seems slow in the turn based combat system of GURPS. Regardles though, the GURPS system adequately deals with this sort of scenario.
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Old 07-08-2011, 12:01 PM   #48
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Default Re: Question about cutting a throat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langy View Post
Huh. Hadn't noticed that.

Still, it's lacking rules that say 'grappling the jaw means you can't speak', which is what I was saying. RAW GURPS has no way of silencing your victim - he'll shout out, which is something you can do if you are mentally stunned (which involves taking the Do Nothing maneuver, which allows speech). Wouldn't be very realistic if surprise or fear would mean you can't scream, since surprise and fear resulting in screaming is pretty much exactly what happens in real life.

So, yes, it takes a while to kill a guy in real life - that's fine, but he can still yell for help even though his neck was just cut in half, and he'll still take forever to die from blood loss even in the worst possible situation.

Also: I had thought a large knife was something a bit bigger than a combat knife (more along the lines of a machete), hence why I used a small knife in my example.

The All-Out Grapple and Strike maneuver (which I had completely missed) also looks like it'll be much more useful for this.

Anyways, if grappling the jaw actually silenced opponents, and if ST really should impact knife damage that much (which I'm simply dubious about, unless strong people utilize different techniques from weaker people), then all right, sentry removal isn't as badly done in GURPS as I had thought. I still think that you should get a bonus to hit a location that you've immobilized via grappling, that severe bleeding is too slow, and that there should be some mention in the RAW that grappling the jaw silences a person.
It's definitely permitted to silence someone by grappling their face, as used on page 11 of MA:Fairburn Close Combat Systems. EDIT: Ok, it keeps their mouth shut, so they can't cry out. It doesn't make it impossible for them to make any noise.

I have the vague idea that I've seen that in other RAW, but I haven't been able to turn it up.

I'm pretty sure a machete is way bigger than a large knife. It might not be bigger than a long knife. Martial Arts probably addresses this, but I don't have it handy.
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Originally Posted by Jeminai View Post
Veins and arteries (if cut) bleed for 1 HP per turn!
I don't know if this is houserules or playing a different edition (given that you use HT instead of HP), but that's flat out not true. Martial Arts for 4e has Veins and Arteries bleed every 30 seconds.
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Last edited by Ulzgoroth; 07-08-2011 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 07-08-2011, 12:12 PM   #49
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Default Re: Question about cutting a throat.

One other thing: if a person cuts the a victim's windpipe wide open and that victim screams what makes anyone thing that no sound will come out. Unless the vocal chords are severed, the person will still have a voice to scream with. This voice will come out of a throat hole just fine, but will be accompanied by the flippity-flap of torn flesh and gurgling noises of liberated fluids.

All-in-all a noisy affair of horiific proportions. Rangers teach a stab to the kidneys and a hard tearing motion down through them while silencing the victim with the other hand. The pain is so excrutiating that the victim usually can't scream at all and bleeding is so fast that they die quickly, NOT immediately.
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Old 07-08-2011, 12:31 PM   #50
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Default Re: Question about cutting a throat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langy View Post
As a GM, I'd probably say 'yeah, he can't talk', but I'd rather see explicit mention of that.
Ah. The purpose of rules is not always to be so explicit. In many cases, the author is trying to provide some narrative or descriptive structure, and that is all. If it were as explicit as some would like, it would need to say whether this worked against other structures, you know, beyond the human mouth: mandibles, beaks, tentacled orifice, etc., and so on. Further, I'm not sure it would totally silence the victim. It expect their might be gurgling, hissing, groaning, etc. How loud? Well, that's another paragraph. Sometimes, because of word count or even authorial focus, you just can't/won't outline every possible nuance.That's why the GM exists.

Quote:
True enough. Do you disagree that it would make sense for a knife swing to the neck to be easier if you've already grappled a target's jaw than if you just tried swinging from behind, though? Isn't part of the point of grabbing the guy's jaw to make it easier to hit the neck? I'd like to see rules for this (though, as I've mentioned, I dabbled with a house rule that doing so halves the hit location penalty).
I don't think that has precedent in GURPS. By being grappled you suffer reduced defenses at some point; I'm not sure if by grappling someone you get extra damage or an easier chance to hit.
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