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Old 07-08-2011, 10:42 AM   #31
Icelander
 
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Default Re: Question about cutting a throat.

Yeah, Langy, I think you're missing the fact that real sentry removal is not done in 1 second. It takes around 30 seconds.

The process starts with sneaking up to the sentry and getting in position. This is not included in the 30 seconds, of course, as it may take hours. Optionally, the last few steps may involve a strike against the sciatic nerve, a nerve cluster in the neck or a stab to the kidneys to immobilise the sentry with pain for a few seconds. Then you grab the sentry, to prevent him from moving or shouting out. GURPS Martial Arts Fairbairn Close Combat Systems appears to indicate that Grappling the Face grants enough control to prevent crying out, if desired. Use AoA (Double) and couple the Grapple with a Thrust with the knife to either the Neck or the Neck Arteries, depending on your skill level. This will give you a damage bonus for the Grab and Smash rules.

Now you're in position and the sentry is probably either mentally or physically stunned, most likely both. What you do is you make All-Out (Double) Telegraphic Attacks to the Neck or Neck Arteries. You use the swing damage type, to represent cutting outward from the first stab wound.

This ought to give you enough damage to bring the sentry below HP. For a strong special ops type of guy, that is, someone who could plausibily carry this stunt off in real life, you ought to have done around 33 points of damage or so. That's two death checks and a penalty to the consciousness checks. This means that when and if the sentry recovers from his surprise and or physical stun, he'll be making penalised HT checks to stay conscious every second as he tries to break free.

He'll also, ideally, be bleeding from the Neck Arteries, which in my games is 1 HP per second. Even without that house rule, nothing prevents you from making more All-Out (Double) Telegraphic Attacks on his Neck or Neck Arteries while he's recovering. Once you feel you've done enough damage, just hold on tight while the sentry bleeds out. That accounts for most of the 30 seconds. He'll be unconscious shortly. Then you lay him down, softly, and continue on your way.
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Old 07-08-2011, 10:55 AM   #32
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Default Re: Question about cutting a throat.

...is a bit scared that people know so much about neck-slicing on this forum >.<.
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Old 07-08-2011, 10:55 AM   #33
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Default Re: Question about cutting a throat.

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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
...is a bit scared that people know so much about neck-slicing on this forum >.<.
I was thinking exactly this...
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Old 07-08-2011, 10:56 AM   #34
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Default Re: Question about cutting a throat.

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
(The closest I know of to a one-stab immobilization is a thrust up into the brain past the base of the skull; in GURPS terms, a thrust to the skull hit location, most likely done as All-Out Attack (Strong) to drive the blade in.)
Out of curiosity... why a thrust? It seems like a swing/chop attack is almost always better in game system terms. It's DR2 either way, x4 wounding either way, but the swing does more damage.
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Old 07-08-2011, 11:02 AM   #35
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Default Re: Question about cutting a throat.

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post

real sentry removal is not done in 1 second. It takes around 30 seconds

a strong special ops type of guy, that is, someone who could plausibily carry this stunt off in real life
These are the two most important parts often overlooked in larger-than-life fiction. In movies and video games, skeevy little weasels with low ST and dinky-small knives kill instantly from behind. In real life, beefy killers with croc-skinning knives need up to a minute to complete the deed. Also in reality, weaker guys with smaller knives end up stabbing a lot, which is where you get the news reports of 20, 30, even 40 or more wounds in an incident; the mean number of stabs in a nonlethal knife assault varies between 2 and 3, depending on whose reports you read.
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Old 07-08-2011, 11:04 AM   #36
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Default Re: Question about cutting a throat.

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Originally Posted by seasong View Post
Out of curiosity... why a thrust? It seems like a swing/chop attack is almost always better in game system terms. It's DR2 either way, x4 wounding either way, but the swing does more damage.
For modest-ST characters at least, the raw damage of a knife thrust can be equivalent to a swing... or even higher if you use a Reverse Grip. Also, realistically speaking, penetrating the skull with a cutting attack may have similar difficulties to penetrating hard armor. In other words, an impaling attack may penetrate better despite being lower energy.
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Old 07-08-2011, 11:05 AM   #37
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Default Re: Question about cutting a throat.

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Originally Posted by seasong View Post
Out of curiosity... why a thrust? It seems like a swing/chop attack is almost always better in game system terms. It's DR2 either way, x4 wounding either way, but the swing does more damage.
Possible factors: 'Skull Chinks', swing damage dubious.

Also note that knives have a 2 point penalty on swing damage relative to thrust, which almost evens that out in the probable ST range.
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Old 07-08-2011, 11:10 AM   #38
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Default Re: Question about cutting a throat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seasong View Post

Out of curiosity... why a thrust? It seems like a swing/chop attack is almost always better in game system terms. It's DR2 either way, x4 wounding either way, but the swing does more damage.
Chiefly because with a large knife, it's swing-2 vs. full thrust. So for ST 10 it's 1d-2 cut vs. 1d-2 imp, for ST 11 it's 1d-1 cut vs. 1d-1 imp, for ST 12 it's 1d cut vs. 1d-1 imp, for ST 13 it's 2d-3 cut vs. 1d imp, etc. At the likely ST ranges, it's almost a wash. And with Reversed Grip (which increases thrust, decreases swing) or All-Out Grab and Smash (which only gives bonus thrust damage), stabbing becomes superior.
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Old 07-08-2011, 11:55 AM   #39
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Default Re: Question about cutting a throat.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
But "Jaw" is.
Huh. Hadn't noticed that.

Still, it's lacking rules that say 'grappling the jaw means you can't speak', which is what I was saying. RAW GURPS has no way of silencing your victim - he'll shout out, which is something you can do if you are mentally stunned (which involves taking the Do Nothing maneuver, which allows speech). Wouldn't be very realistic if surprise or fear would mean you can't scream, since surprise and fear resulting in screaming is pretty much exactly what happens in real life.

So, yes, it takes a while to kill a guy in real life - that's fine, but he can still yell for help even though his neck was just cut in half, and he'll still take forever to die from blood loss even in the worst possible situation.

Also: I had thought a large knife was something a bit bigger than a combat knife (more along the lines of a machete), hence why I used a small knife in my example.

The All-Out Grapple and Strike maneuver (which I had completely missed) also looks like it'll be much more useful for this.

Anyways, if grappling the jaw actually silenced opponents, and if ST really should impact knife damage that much (which I'm simply dubious about, unless strong people utilize different techniques from weaker people), then all right, sentry removal isn't as badly done in GURPS as I had thought. I still think that you should get a bonus to hit a location that you've immobilized via grappling, that severe bleeding is too slow, and that there should be some mention in the RAW that grappling the jaw silences a person.
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Old 07-08-2011, 12:13 PM   #40
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Default Re: Question about cutting a throat.

Combat knives require ST because just about all of the techniques are either about inserting the knife and turning/ripping it against resistance, or sawing with the thing. This involves overcoming the resilience of living tissue, possibly even bone. The quick, darting draw-cut-like stuff with really sharp edges is fine as far as it goes, but not useful for sentry removal or any kind of fighting where you expect results now and not after several minutes of bleeding. It's what Hollywood loves, because it looks flashy, but driving a knife in and dragging it along is closer to real-world fighting.
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