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Old 06-20-2011, 04:56 PM   #11
simply Nathan
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Default Re: In the beginning

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Originally Posted by Green-Neck View Post
(How many points is Satan worth as an enemy?)
To someone who is truly Omnipotent? Not even a Quirk.
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Old 06-20-2011, 07:39 PM   #12
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Default Re: In the beginning

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1) A good list of plausible (or at least kind of sensible) reasons why the gods only created one world.
Well, maybe they didn't. Lots of fantasy games assume multiple worlds. In most cases, they're worlds like Faerie, heavens/hells, etc., but why not have lots of "real" worlds? Whether or not non-gods can travel between them (through magic, natural portals, whatever) is up to you.

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2) A good life of plausible (or at least kind of sensible) reasons why the gods created these races, and no more.
In some settings, the gods put a spark of divine essence into creatures/lumps of clay/whatever, to give them the gift of intelligence. Maybe they only have enough essence for a limited number of races.

Or maybe they don't want to make more races.

Or, of course, they didn't make people in the first place, but people made them.
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Old 06-20-2011, 07:58 PM   #13
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Default Re: In the beginning

In this example, for the creation of life aspect, I used super-high IQ, Will and Per, plus a whole whack of Cosmic Modular Ability to build whatever type of Create might be needed, eg organic chemicals.
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Old 06-20-2011, 09:24 PM   #14
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Default Re: In the beginning

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Originally Posted by downer View Post
They are gods, after all, what they make is without flaw and needs neither adding, nor taking away.
Is there a real folk mythos that actually holds up the world as a perfect creation?


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Originally Posted by Kenneth Latrans View Post
To someone who is truly Omnipotent? Not even a Quirk.
Can we please swap out the omnipotent hobby horse with something else this time around? It's so counterproductive and again is there a real folk mythos that asserts total power unlimited in any way on the part of its supreme being, without contradicting itself at the same time?
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Old 06-21-2011, 07:35 AM   #15
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Default Re: In the beginning

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
...
5. This world's entertainment value is far from exhausted.
6. The power they have invested in this world would have be taken back before they could make another.
7. Proposals for the next world are stuck in committee.
Good ones!

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Actually that the gods continue to create species isn't a bad reason for why "monsters" are never entirely wiped out. A constant flow of prototypes and entire invader species keeps pest control busy.
Yes this could result in a lot of interesting things.

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The "universe" is small and young. Creation is still going on (those fantastic creatures aren't the work of a mad wizard). Somewhere in the range of the biblical universe (flat, a few hundred miles square, and covered by a dome) to the medieval (geocentric, star fixed to a sphere just beyond the orbit of Saturn). A couple of hundred to at most a couple of thousand years old. The "gods" are hard at work pushing the limits of they're powers just keeping this awkward construct functioning.
This could explain why there are always new places for adventurers to go.

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
More or less by definition, gods powerful enough to create you from nothing are sufficiently beyond you as to be incomprehensible, so such lists are going to be fundamentally flawed. But if the gods do behave like people for some reason, well, most people don't do the same project over and over and over, either. They tend to do it once and tinker with it if it isn't quite what they wanted.
But then again, in many mythos through history, the gods have some very human personalities, with all that it brings in terms of power struggles, lineage, breeding, etc.

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Originally Posted by Faolyn View Post
Well, maybe they didn't. Lots of fantasy games assume multiple worlds. In most cases, they're worlds like Faerie, heavens/hells, etc., but why not have lots of "real" worlds? Whether or not non-gods can travel between them (through magic, natural portals, whatever) is up to you.
This is quite possible. On the other hand, you could just rule, that "any fantasy world you've ever heard of. Yep, it's there. Just find a Jumper and you can visit them all". That'll save some work on the worldbuilding.

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In some settings, the gods put a spark of divine essence into creatures/lumps of clay/whatever, to give them the gift of intelligence. Maybe they only have enough essence for a limited number of races.
This could be an interesting aspect. Every time a new member of the race is born, it saps yet another spark of divinity from the gods associated with this race, effectively making sure that the more numerous the race, the less powerful the god. This could also explain human sacrifice ("We return the divine spark to the one who created us").
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Old 06-21-2011, 08:00 AM   #16
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This could be an interesting aspect. Every time a new member of the race is born, it saps yet another spark of divinity from the gods associated with this race, effectively making sure that the more numerous the race, the less powerful the god. This could also explain human sacrifice ("We return the divine spark to the one who created us").
How would you model this disadvantage? A special form of Draining? A severe limitation on his ER/FP/HP that saps into infants? At the rate of 1 per birth? If it's only sapient races? If it's all life?
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Old 06-21-2011, 01:39 PM   #17
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Default Re: In the beginning

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Can we please swap out the omnipotent hobby horse with something else this time around? It's so counterproductive and again is there a real folk mythos that asserts total power unlimited in any way on the part of its supreme being, without contradicting itself at the same time?
I'd be happy to, but I'm pretty sure the post I was responding to claimed that whatever god was being asked about was omnipotent. I don't know what kind of folk mythos you're asking about to assert omnipotence and not contradict itself, nor a folk mythos that asserts omnipotence and does contradict itself.

If there's any kind of pantheon going on, I can't take the notion that any one of its members is omnipotent without snickering. That doesn't match up with any mythos with which I am familiar; polytheistic deities are finite beings, even if incredibly powerful, and can therefore be statted up.

I'd call Satan an equal-powered Enemy for, say, Zeus, Thor, Vishnu, or any other non-Judeo-Christian object of worship I'm even passingly familiar with (the fact that I put all three of them in the same ballpark probably shows my ignorance of at least two of them). If your gods are weaker or stronger than that, adjust accordingly.


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Originally Posted by Green-Neck View Post
If God/s is omnipotent s/he must be built on nearly infinite points. Would the 50% disad. Limit apply in this case? That's a lot if disads! (How many points is Satan worth as an enemy?). Obviously pacifism is out (at least in the old testament), I wonder what disads would be appropriate?
Responding to this one in more detail:
The Hebrew God, worshiped by all Judeo-Christians, is omnipotent. In GURPS terms, even if you could give Him stats, His point total would not be "near-infinite" it would be plain "infinite." While 50% of infinity would be allowed for his disadvantage limit, if built as a PC in a campaign, there's nothing to make Him go up to His limit. Possible "disadvantages" in GURPS terms that may apply:
- Truthfulness(6), Truthfulness(no resistance roll), or Major Vow(Never Lie); God is Truth, lies contradict what He is.
- Honesty(6), some Code of Honor, or Vow, as appropriate for His always keeping His promises, and never breaking His law.
- Sense of Duty(Humanity) or Selfless(6); to the point where He gives His Son to die for the sins of undeserving humans.
- A Quirk for His covenant with Abraham; "I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you." This does not get bought off or swapped for another Quirk after the Resurrection.

Polytheistic gods and goddesses have to be, pretty much by definition, finite. They can be so hugely powerful that their point totals don't matter, but they can't be infinite. From what I can tell, they're generally about as powerful as high-ranking Judeo-Christian angels. They could claim half their point totals in disadvantages, again, if they're being built as PCs and their GM enforces that limit, but are in no way obligated to take as many points as they're allowed; heck, lots of disadvantages don't scale to well, so it's possible that some might run out of disadvantages to take if they try.
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Last edited by simply Nathan; 06-21-2011 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 06-21-2011, 11:15 PM   #18
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Default Re: In the beginning

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The Hebrew God, worshiped by all Judeo-Christians, is omnipotent.
This is what I'm takking about. Trinitarian issues aside, Catholicism uses the latin omnipotentis to characterize God and this has taken on the connotation of "can do anything", but the original Greek παντοκράτωρ (pantocrator) means all-mighty, strongest of all, and of the highest authority. This is even more empahsized in OT Hebraic culture where G-d is King of the Universe, and while some other gods are false idols like Baal, some are real but lesser powers like the gods of Egypt.

In fact Orthodox Judaism holds, as fair as I can tell in the most common writings and interveiwing other flavors of Jews about it, that as one's station ascends from barbarian to righteous gentile to Jew, from Israelite to Kohan to Levite, from child to adult, from woman to man, etc that there are more and more laws one is responisble for following as one is closer to G-d, and the Elohim themselves are strictly bound by Adonai's standards of goodness and the knowledge of the true nature of connectedness of all things so that they seldom may intervene.
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Old 06-22-2011, 04:02 AM   #19
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Default Re: In the beginning

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...
the Elohim themselves are strictly bound by Adonai's standards of goodness and the knowledge of the true nature of connectedness of all things so that they seldom may intervene.
In GURPS terms, what you are saying is that Blindness is the same as Vow (keep eyes closed in given circumstances). Not doing something of one's own volition, in my humble opinion, is not the same as being simply and completely unable to do that thing, even if one wanted to.

As to nothing being impossible for God, I'll respectfully suggest that Christians have that on pretty good authority, no matter the language you choose, see Matthew 19:26 or Luke 1:37. The Jews have Genesis 18:14 or Jeremiah 32:27.
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Old 06-22-2011, 09:44 AM   #20
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In GURPS terms, what you are saying is that Blindness is the same as Vow (keep eyes closed in given circumstances). Not doing something of one's own volition, in my humble opinion, is not the same as being simply and completely unable to do that thing, even if one wanted to.

As to nothing being impossible for God,
I think this is a useless digression. For roleplaying purposes, omnipotence has no value. And yeah, Blindness is the same as never opening your eyes for any reason whatsoever. If the option doesn't exist to break a vow, it's not a Vow. It's something else. Which is why Can't Wear Armor is the same thing as Won't Wear Armor Under Any Circumstances No Take Backs

Which enables me to segue back to the real subject. Unless you have players actually playing your gods the distinction between "Aren't creating new worlds" and "Are creating new worlds, but the players will never get a chance to see them" is meaningless. For the purposes of the game the two options play out exactly the same.
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