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Old 08-04-2010, 03:03 AM   #1
Zsed
 
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Default Infinite use of "usable once only " - Second Chance Sparkles

I just got the fairy dust expantion and last time i played i had Second Chance Sparkles in play and played Magic Missile. I rolled a 3 so i played Fairy Fortune and turned the die to 6 and got the Magic Missile back. I then rolled a 2 on the roll to get the Fairy Fortune card back. I then played a Loded Die to turn the die to 6 and get the Fairy Fortune back. Loded Die is also usable once only so i rolled to get it back and got a 6.

Now i can do it again and so get unlimited Magic Missiles or any other "usable once only" items.
I can always roll a 6

Is that acording to the rules?
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Old 08-04-2010, 03:18 AM   #2
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Default Re: Infinite use of "usable once only "

You're still vulnerable to having either the Sparkles or the Die stolen/cursed away.

Also, I should think that one shouldn't be able to roll for Loaded Die, use Fairy Fortune to affect that roll, roll for Fairy Fortune, and use Loaded Die to affect that roll. Faced with this situation in the absence of a definite answer, I'd rule that the dust has to clear before you can use the recovered item. That is, if you're recovering Loaded Die with Fairy Fortune, the "do I lose Fairy Fortune" question has to be resolved - either way - before you can use the Loaded Die again.

That breaks the infinite loop in a way consistent with other precedents, and thus I'm confident in that answer, but only Andrew or MM can make it official.
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Old 08-04-2010, 07:11 AM   #3
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Default Re: Infinite use of "usable once only "

Second Chance Sparkles does not appear to be a one-shot Item, so I don't understand why either of you feel it needs to be discarded. By all the information I have at my disposal, the card is an unslotted Item that you don't lose by any action described in the original post, and must have in play before you used the one-shot Item you were trying to retrieve.

However: Even if Second Chance Sparkles was not a "persistent" Item, and instead fell under the concept of a Treasure card that is a "special" card (like a GUAL), and is thus played and then discarded, it does not say, "Usable once only," which is extremely important since Second Chance Sparkles only works to retrieve cards that say that exact phrase on them. And, if Second Chance Sparkles WAS a one-shot Item, you couldn't use its ability to retrieve it since you'd lost it (and therefore its ability) after using it the first time.
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Old 08-04-2010, 11:25 AM   #4
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Default Re: Infinite use of "usable once only "

Quote:
Originally Posted by MunchkinMan View Post
Second Chance Sparkles does not appear to be a one-shot Item, so I don't understand why either of you feel it needs to be discarded.
Um, we don't. Nobody said anything about discarding SCS. The problem is that having SCS seems to allow one to use Loaded Die and Fairy Fortune in a never-ending chain of "my die rolls are no longer random." Which is bad.
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Old 08-04-2010, 11:35 AM   #5
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Default Re: Infinite use of "usable once only "

Quote:
Originally Posted by RevBob View Post
Um, we don't. Nobody said anything about discarding SCS. The problem is that having SCS seems to allow one to use Loaded Die and Fairy Fortune in a never-ending chain of "my die rolls are no longer random." Which is bad.
No caffeine + no glasses = not reading right, apparently. I missed an entire sentence in the OP several times. . .

What you say, then, makes a fair amount of sense, and lacking a better way to describe it, I'll just put my endorsement on it until Andrew and I have time to confer, if he desires to.
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Old 08-04-2010, 09:58 PM   #6
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Default Re: Infinite use of "usable once only " - Second Chance Sparkles

Is this any more "abusive" than what was discussed in this thread? There are cards that will stop this from continuing.
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Old 08-05-2010, 01:12 AM   #7
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Default Re: Infinite use of "usable once only " - Second Chance Sparkles

Let me timeline this...

0: Second Chance Sparkles, recovers a 1 shot on a 6
1: Play Magic Missile
2: Roll for SCS - 3
3: Play Fairy Fortune, change die to 6
4: Magic Missile returns to hand (Fortune says "After you resolve the first roll")
5: Roll for FF - 3
6: Play Loaded Die, change die to 6
7: Return FF to hand
8: Roll for SCS on Loaded Die - 2
9: Play Fairy Fortune, change die to 6
10: Return Loaded Die to hand
11: Roll for Fairy Fortune


OK, I see how this is working. You can infinitely recurse the FF and LD until you roll "right", and then you can start again with the Magic Missile.

However, this timeline is dependent on a couple assumptions.
The main one is that you return something to hand (after a successful roll) before you finish resolving the die-changer, which is questionable.

With Fairy Fortune, it's clear. It says "resolve the first roll, THEN roll to recover it". So using FF to get a 6 to keep your Loaded Die works.

But does it work the other way?

The Loaded Die says nothing about waiting until the roll is resolved. It clearly interrupts the action in progress to change the die roll. This also indicates that it "goes away" before the target roll is resolved.

By this logic, steps 7 and 8 should be reversed. This keeps with the general rule of "resolve each action completely before going on to the next declared thing".

To be more specific, resolving the Loaded Die includes placing it in the discard pile AND rolling for the SCS (as it states the item "comes back", ergo from the discard pile). And this would all be done before you finish resolving the Fairy Fortune recovery roll.

4: Magic Missile returns to hand (Fortune says "After you resolve the first roll")
5: Roll for FF - 3
6: Play Loaded Die, change die to 6, discard Loaded Die
7: Roll for SCS on Loaded Die - 2 - Loaded Die stays in discard
8: Return FF to hand

Infinite loop broken.

Again, Andrew or Erik make the final rulings, but this is how I'm seeing it working out.
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Old 03-11-2011, 10:57 PM   #8
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Default Re: Infinite use of "usable once only " - Second Chance Sparkles

What I don't get about your logic Palmer is why you only use Second Chance Sparkles twice when you've played three one-shot items. You use it for the one-shot item and for the Loaded Die, but not for the Fairy Fortune; instead you only used Fairy Fortuneís inherent self-recovery ability. I think that's where your loop breaking is flawed. The Second Chance Sparkles text states that it is used every time you play a one-shot item. Thus the following scenario should be perfectly valid:

Setup: one-shot item, 2 Loaded Die (LD #1 and LD #2), Second Chance Sparkles (SCS)

1. Use one-shot item, which is then discarded.
2. Try SCS to recover one-shot item: roll 5.
3. Use LD #1 to change roll to 6. One-shot item is recovered; SCS for one-shot item resolved. LD #1 is discarded.
4. Try SCS to recover LD #1: roll 5.
5. Use LD #2 to change roll to 6. LD #1 is recovered; SCS for LD #1 resolved. LD #2 is discarded.
6. Try SCS to recover LD #2: roll 5.
7. Use LD #1 to change roll to 6. LD #2 is recovered; SCS for LD #2 resolved. LD #1 is discarded.
8. Try SCS to recover LD #1: roll 6. LD #1 is recovered; SCS for LD #1 resolved.

4 one-shot items were used and SCS was used 4 times.

I donít really want to think about how Fairy Fortune fits into this as Iíve already spent way too much time on it as it is :)

If there is some gap in my logic, please let me know. Otherwise, the following tactics are possible using this infinite loop:

1. Infinite combat strength by using and reusing a potion in battle
2. Infinite ability to end othersí combats with nothing gained using Friendship Potion or Potion of Cowardice (can be blocked by Raincoat, Restraining Order, Annihilation, or Charmed Circle)
3. 100% stealing success rate
4. 100% running away success rate from monsters that are possible to run away from...or if you have an automatic run away card, guaranteed running away even then
5. Instant jump to level 9 by rolling 6ís over and over with The Occasionally Reliable Amulet
6. Ability to steal any monster away from someone in any combat for the rest of the game using Transferral Potion (can be blocked by same cards as #2 above)
7. Complete protection from Curses if you have a Wishing Ring or Lucky Talisman
8. Complete protection from all other players interfering with your combats with a Restraining Order
9. Ability to block any other player from successful Run Away rolls using Flask of Glue, or rolls of any kind using Feline Intervention. This can be exploited by Bards into forcing anyone of any level to help you in any battle (except one in which you would win the game) for no reward.

...and probably even more that I haven't considered or that involved cards that I haven't seen.
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Old 03-12-2011, 03:58 PM   #9
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Default Re: Infinite use of "usable once only " - Second Chance Sparkles

Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothhands View Post
1. Infinite combat strength by using and reusing a potion in battle
A potion used in combat is "used" until the end of the combat, at which point it is discarded, along with all the other cards that modified the combat.

I do not believe it would be possible to use the same potion more than once in a combat through a mechanism which involved recovering discards, because by the time the potion was actually discarded, the combat would be over.
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Old 03-12-2011, 11:11 PM   #10
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Default Re: Infinite use of "usable once only " - Second Chance Sparkles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirt View Post
A potion used in combat is "used" until the end of the combat, at which point it is discarded, along with all the other cards that modified the combat.

I do not believe it would be possible to use the same potion more than once in a combat through a mechanism which involved recovering discards, because by the time the potion was actually discarded, the combat would be over.
The issue comes from Second Chance Sparkles which includes "...may be used again, even in the same combat."
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