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Old 05-03-2011, 08:33 PM   #1
JCurwen3
 
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Default Leech (Steal Attribute) vs. Affliction (Attribute Penalty)

Leech with Steal Other Score is the other way to inflict an attribute loss upon an enemy, in addition to doing it with Affliction (Attribute Penalty).

My confusion / question is: why do the rules specifically ban any use of Cosmic to remove the resistance roll for an Affliction that is doing, by default, potentially less than Leech which allows no resistance roll? Affliction can certainly smack you all at once with a big attribute penalty whereas Leech only steals one attribute point per second of contact, but Leech's time for attribute recovery (FP recovery time per point) kind of makes up for that.

Leech also treats the penalty differently, more like a form of damage (hence the recovery over time), but that's another story.

What makes removing the resistance roll for an Affliction that inflicts an Attribute Penalty so horrible considering that Leech only requires physical contact?
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:11 PM   #2
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Attribute) vs. Affliction (Attribute Penalty)

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Originally Posted by JCurwen3 View Post
Leech with Steal Other Score is the other way to inflict an attribute loss upon an enemy, in addition to doing it with Affliction (Attribute Penalty).

My confusion / question is: why do the rules specifically ban any use of Cosmic to remove the resistance roll for an Affliction that is doing, by default, potentially less than Leech which allows no resistance roll? ?
Because there's always supposed to be a defense roll. The defense roll in the case of Leech just happens to be against grappling.
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:42 PM   #3
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Attribute) vs. Affliction (Attribute Penalty)

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Because there's always supposed to be a defense roll. The defense roll in the case of Leech just happens to be against grappling.
Yes, but Affliction by default is a ranged attack which does have a defense (dodging). And if you put Melee Attack on it, or another thing that requires grappling or touching, then you've made it have the exact same kind of defense roll as Leech, and yet by the RAW, you'd still have that resistance roll for Affliction on top of the defense to avoid the attack, wouldn't you?
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:59 PM   #4
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Attribute) vs. Affliction (Attribute Penalty)

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Originally Posted by JCurwen3 View Post
Yes, but Affliction by default is a ranged attack which does have a defense (dodging). And if you put Melee Attack on it, or another thing that requires grappling or touching, then you've made it have the exact same kind of defense roll as Leech, and yet by the RAW, you'd still have that resistance roll for Affliction on top of the defense to avoid the attack, wouldn't you?
But Affliction can be designed so it has no dodge roll. And of course Affliction is a leveled advantage. Leech isn't. There would be no reason to ever get a second level of Affliction when it would usually be much cheaper just to slap on another enhancement.
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Old 05-03-2011, 10:19 PM   #5
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Attribute) vs. Affliction (Attribute Penalty)

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But Affliction can be designed so it has no dodge roll. And of course Affliction is a leveled advantage. Leech isn't. There would be no reason to ever get a second level of Affliction when it would usually be much cheaper just to slap on another enhancement.
Leech can also be designed to have no Dodge roll - just add Malediction, for instance, in which case it's back to a resistance roll (a Quick Contest, in that case). But I think that an Affliction that allows a Dodge or other active defense should be able to have no resistance roll, and that's not the case RAW.

I do take your point on the issue that Affliction is levelled. Leech is also levelled, but its levelling is based on its effects, and Affliction's is based on that resistance roll - but still, with a high enough additional modifier to remove the resistance roll, it should be functionally equivalent to a high level of Affliction (where resistance is virtually impossible).

The thing is that it seems to me that whatever that modifier or level of Affliction is, it shouldn't ever be more costly than doing an equivalent amount of "attribute damage" using Leech (especially since Leech bundles in the self-healing bit).
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Old 05-03-2011, 11:28 PM   #6
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Attribute) vs. Affliction (Attribute Penalty)

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Originally Posted by JCurwen3 View Post
The thing is that it seems to me that whatever that modifier or level of Affliction is, it shouldn't ever be more costly than doing an equivalent amount of "attribute damage" using Leech (especially since Leech bundles in the self-healing bit).
The Resistance Roll in Affliction defines how long attribute loss last, where as leech has a healing rate instead.
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Old 05-03-2011, 11:30 PM   #7
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Attribute) vs. Affliction (Attribute Penalty)

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Originally Posted by JCurwen3 View Post
Leech can also be designed to have no Dodge roll - just add Malediction, for instance, in which case it's back to a resistance roll (a Quick Contest, in that case). But I think that an Affliction that allows a Dodge or other active defense should be able to have no resistance roll, and that's not the case.
What would that represent?
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Old 05-04-2011, 04:15 AM   #8
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Attribute) vs. Affliction (Attribute Penalty)

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Originally Posted by JCurwen3 View Post
My confusion / question is: why do the rules specifically ban any use of Cosmic to remove the resistance roll for an Affliction that is doing, by default, potentially less than Leech which allows no resistance roll? Affliction can certainly smack you all at once with a big attribute penalty whereas Leech only steals one attribute point per second of contact, but Leech's time for attribute recovery (FP recovery time per point) kind of makes up for that.

Leech also treats the penalty differently, more like a form of damage (hence the recovery over time), but that's another story.

What makes removing the resistance roll for an Affliction that inflicts an Attribute Penalty so horrible considering that Leech only requires physical contact?
"Expectation of Adversarial Play", "Player Empowerment" and "A Desire For Characters To Always Have Some Form Of Defense". Tis a design philosophy (and one that produces silly results sometimes).

(Cosmic, No Resistance Check, +300%)* is what I use to remove the target's ability to resist an Affliction, priced in comparison to the other defense breakers. I combine it with (Fixed Duration, +0%) for a MOS of 3** or (Cosmic, No Roll Required, +100%) for a MOS of (as if attacking character rolled a 3)*** typically.
* Not RAW, ** RAW, *** Also RAW

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What would that represent?
It'd be better to just apply the Ranged modifier to Leech to get this effect (can defend with active defense, doesn't check resistance), rather than Ranged + Malediction + No Resistance Check + Can Defend With Active Defense modifiers. The second set of modifiers is complexity for the sake of complexity.
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Old 05-04-2011, 06:59 AM   #9
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Attribute) vs. Affliction (Attribute Penalty)

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Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire View Post
It'd be better to just apply the Ranged modifier to Leech to get this effect (can defend with active defense, doesn't check resistance), rather than Ranged + Malediction + No Resistance Check + Can Defend With Active Defense modifiers. The second set of modifiers is complexity for the sake of complexity.
Ranged already allows "can defend with Active Defense" and you need SOMETHING in there to cover the upgrade from "Need to grapple and maintain extended contact" to "pew pew leeching lazors" - Ranged doesn't cover that.
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:07 AM   #10
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Attribute) vs. Affliction (Attribute Penalty)

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Ranged already allows "can defend with Active Defense" and you need SOMETHING in there to cover the upgrade from "Need to grapple and maintain extended contact" to "pew pew leeching lazors" - Ranged doesn't cover that.
You would have to make a new successful (ranged) attack every second that you wished to Leech. Though you could always add (Cosmic, Only Needs Brief Contact, +50%) if the GM feels it is appropriate; I, personally, wouldn't require it for a ranged non-malediction Leech.
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