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Old 04-08-2011, 05:14 PM   #1
JCurwen3
 
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Default Shedim and Kyriotate Resonances in GURPS?

How would you build the resonances of standard Shedim and Kyriotates in GURPS 4th ed terms?

Possession the GURPS advantage doesn't seem at all right for the standard Shedim resonance, which doesn't seem to give them control over the bodies they're inhabiting, only "[desensitizing the] hosts to obscenity by bending their minds to [the Shedite's] celestial will, convincing them that such perversion was their idea". That sounds more like the Mind Control advantage, but then there is the sticking point that the Shedite is physically inhabiting the host form too (some extremely limited form of Possession with a limitation?).

And Kyriotates are complicated because they can possess multiple hosts. That could be a combination of Compartmentalized Mind levels and Possession. But that alone doesn't handle the fact that they can only possess up to their Forces in total host Forces. Forces as a concept don't exist in GURPS, but the way it should work is that they could possess a great many "weak" hosts (like all the insects in a swarm), or a human and two dogs, or just several more than two dogs at once, or two humans (if one of them was a child, or two adults if the Kyriotate we were modelling had enough Forces in In Nomine for that). Since character points are a rough indication of relative power in GURPS, it feels like the best way to model it would be to limit their Possession against some total possessible character point value, but I have no idea how to do this.

And finally, Shedim of Saminga, and Kyriotates of Laurence - they can possess the dead. What's needed to model that?
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Old 04-08-2011, 05:51 PM   #2
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Default Re: Shedim and Kyriotate Resonances in GURPS?

I don't know anything about GURPS at all, but just to clarify one point about the regular IN resonance mechanics: Despite that it's easy to interpret the text as you do, there's been a lot of discussion outside the original rule books to clarify that Shedim DO control their hosts. The hosts interprets what the demons do as their own actions, and can try to regain control if the demon does something particularly heinous, but from a mechanical standpoint, the demon can do whatever it wants.

One way to think about it: It may be confusing for the host to remember later barking out what seems like gibberish to strangers (i.e., a conversation in Helltongue), but that's not something the host would even be able to do if it weren't actual, full-on possession, and Shedim can do that.
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Old 04-08-2011, 05:58 PM   #3
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Default Re: Shedim and Kyriotate Resonances in GURPS?

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Originally Posted by Jason View Post
I don't know anything about GURPS at all, but just to clarify one point about the regular IN resonance mechanics: Despite that it's easy to interpret the text as you do, there's been a lot of discussion outside the original rule books to clarify that Shedim DO control their hosts. The hosts interprets what the demons do as their own actions, and can try to regain control if the demon does something particularly heinous, but from a mechanical standpoint, the demon can do whatever it wants.

One way to think about it: It may be confusing for the host to remember later barking out what seems like gibberish to strangers (i.e., a conversation in Helltongue), but that's not something the host would even be able to do if it weren't actual, full-on possession, and Shedim can do that.
Okay, that's fair, and seeing it that way would make building the ability with Possession easier. I guess Shedim can be said to be using Mind Control on their hosts not so much to get them to perform actions (because the Shedite can do that anyway as you've pointed out), but to convince them their actions were their idea and that they wanted to do them (and to corrupt them so that they afterwards can rationalize them).
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Old 04-08-2011, 09:13 PM   #4
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Default Re: Shedim and Kyriotate Resonances in GURPS?

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Originally Posted by JCurwen3 View Post
And finally, Shedim of Saminga, and Kyriotates of Laurence - they can possess the dead. What's needed to model that?
Only Shedim. Kyrios of Lawrence get a Vessel, like Kyrios of War, but with the limitation that the Vessel's Role is that of a Warrior who died in the line of duty, and the Angel is taking over from the Humans life.
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Old 04-08-2011, 09:42 PM   #5
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Default Re: Shedim and Kyriotate Resonances in GURPS?

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Only Shedim. Kyrios of Lawrence get a Vessel, like Kyrios of War, but with the limitation that the Vessel's Role is that of a Warrior who died in the line of duty, and the Angel is taking over from the Humans life.
Thanks, yes, after a quick re-read of that section, it seems like they do get a vessel which is identical in appearance and Role to the dead warrior (sort of a body swap).

It also appears someone figured out Shedim of Saminga special possession of the dead ability. It's a combo of Permeate (Flesh) and Telekinesis in GURPS.
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Old 04-09-2011, 03:10 PM   #6
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Default Re: Shedim and Kyriotate Resonances in GURPS?

I always interpreted Shedite possession as based on subtle persuasion, but with the player playing both the Shedite and the host human.
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Old 04-09-2011, 04:29 PM   #7
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Default Re: Shedim and Kyriotate Resonances in GURPS?

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I always interpreted Shedite possession as based on subtle persuasion, but with the player playing both the Shedite and the host human.
Does that imply that the host has more opportunities to resist foreign-seeming actions? To use the "speaking in Helltongue" example again: It's not necessarily something against their morals (as they have no idea what the sounds coming out of their mouth are), but it's definitely not something they would choose to do normally.

Either way, sounds like a fun thing to let more experienced roleplayers handle, though I'd be hesitant to give newer players (or D&D players) control over NPCs. Too easy to just forget that the purpose is to make an interesting story together, and effectively say, "Oh, well, he happens to do what I would want him to do."
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Old 04-09-2011, 05:22 PM   #8
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Default Re: Shedim and Kyriotate Resonances in GURPS?

The way I tend to approve of Shedim is... Hm. Mechanically, the Shedite is driving the host around like a stolen car, with occasional Will roll situations if the host goes, "Oh, heck, NO" for some reason. It's just too hard, from a meta-game standpoint, to make it more complicated than that.

Role-playingly, though, having the Shedite's player speak in terms of leading the host around... that's more satisfying. And if the GM can spare the time to make the host sometimes think things that disturb (or please) the Shedite, all the better!

http://www.io.com/~arcangel/GamingWa...U/myINIOU.html is a slightly silly crossover of In Nomine and IOU. There is a Shedite of the Game (Mellor) as one of the players. The player in question did Mellor brilliantly, I think -- a mix of unmitigated steering, descriptive stuff about the host interactions, soothing with tentacle kisses... (Not to mention the arguments with one host about who she found sexy. Danny, Malakite of Judgment, was one. Asmodeus was another. Mellor was... unpleased.)
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Old 04-09-2011, 07:28 PM   #9
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Default Re: Shedim and Kyriotate Resonances in GURPS?

Okay, so I did the Shedim resonance, the way I see it. I added it to the Unofficial GURPS In Nomine for 4ed thread, and also quoted it below. Questions, comments, anything, ideally please post to that thread; I'm trying to respark interest in it as it's been dormant for a few months.

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Standard Shedim Resonance

Entering Host and Controlling His Mind:
Permeation (Living Flesh; Link, +10%; Meld 1, +150%; Terminal Condition, Host reduced to unconsciousness for 30 minutes, -20%; Terminal Condition, No longer in host, -0%) [12] +
Mind Control (Accessibility, Only on host, -10%; Based on Will, Own Roll, +20%; Independent, +70%; Link, +10%; Puppet, -40; Rationalization, +20%; Terminal Condition, Host reduced to unconsciousness for 30 minutes, -20%; Terminal Condition, No longer in host, -0%) [75] + Special Rapport (Accessibility, Only on host, -10%; Based on Will, Own Roll, +20%; Link, +10%; One Way, +20%; Terminal Condition, Host reduced to unconsciousness for 30 minutes, -20%; Terminal Condition, No longer in host, -0%; Transferable, +150%) [14]. 101 points.

Full Knowledge of Host's Thoughts:
Mind Reading (Accessibility, Only on host, -10%; Based on Will, Own Roll, +20%; Cosmic, No penalties for failure, +50%; Reduced Time 1, +20%; Sensory, +20%; Terminal Condition, No longer in host, -0%; Universal, +50%) [75].

Full Knowledge of Host's Memories:
Mind Probe (Accessibility, Only on host, -10%; Based on Will, Own Roll, +20%; Cosmic, No penalties for failure, +50%; Invasive, +75%; Reduced Time 1, +20%; Sensory, +20%; Terminal Condition, No longer in host, -0%; Universal, +50%) [65] ([13] as an alternative ability).

Notes: This is the standard Shedim resonance. The demon must win a Quick Contest of Wills with its intended host. Success means it enters the host's body and can control its host's mind. During this time, the Shedite will have instant and full knowledge of its host's memories, thoughts, and feelings. If the demon attempts to force the subject to act against his principles (e.g., commit suicide or harm a loved one), there is another Quick Contest. If the victim wins, he breaks free, and the Shedite cannot possess him again for 24 hours. 189 points.
Note that I decided against basing this on Possession. GURPS Possession is complete and total control over the target, with no mechanic to allow for Quick Contests of Wills in the face of forcing the subject to go against his principles (including making him do something that could kill him). It also isn't kind to possessing entities that are inside the body when it dies (a Shedite gets a point of dissonance but more or less can shrug off the host dying). And, finally, Possession leaves the victim with no memory - you may have ruined their lives, but you haven't corrupted them, only deeply confused them. So a build with Mind Control and Permeation (Flesh) seemed best.
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Old 04-10-2011, 06:20 PM   #10
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Default Re: Shedim and Kyriotate Resonances in GURPS?

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Originally Posted by Jason View Post
Does that imply that the host has more opportunities to resist foreign-seeming actions? To use the "speaking in Helltongue" example again: It's not necessarily something against their morals (as they have no idea what the sounds coming out of their mouth are), but it's definitely not something they would choose to do normally.
Mechanically I'd say that the GM should require a Will roll whenever the demon wants the vessel to act significantly contrary to the interests of its usual owner. As with the other demonic Resonances it's still a matter of persuasion - note that Will is the base attribute for seduction and fast-talk.) It only counts as Corruption, though, if the target wants to do it on some level bit is held back by meekness.

Diegetically I like to think of the Shedite and host as "thinking aloud" in the same "space" and unable to distinguish between themselves and the other. (Maybe Shedim also have "indoor voices" or maybe the host hears "I hope Baron Shalgezub doesn't find out about this" as "I hope my boss doesn't find out about this;" Idunno.) Since the demon knows there are two voices in there it's at a structural advantage, but its personality will always be very strongly influenced by the host - which is fun for people like me who normally GM because they get bored of characters quickly. My guess as to the demon's ability to explain away oddities is extremely high - if you think "didn't I read about this in the New Yorker...?" or the like, you will very readily confabulated a memory for it. Of course you can extrapolate from there to how Shedim get so crazy.

Unrelated, but: Angelic and Helltongue I like to think of as purely musical in form, so that Celestials can talk in a sing-song or rap and transmit the "real" meaning through pitch, beat, &c. (Needless to say, rock hits really do contain subliminal Satanic messages.)

Quote:
Either way, sounds like a fun thing to let more experienced roleplayers handle, though I'd be hesitant to give newer players (or D&D players) control over NPCs. Too easy to just forget that the purpose is to make an interesting story together, and effectively say, "Oh, well, he happens to do what I would want him to do."
Yes, but why play with bad roleplayers in the first place?
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