[MA] Problem with Pressure Secrets

the_seeker · 12-27-2010, 09:51 AM

Basic Set: Campaigns, p399, regarding Hit Location...
"Certain attacks can target the vitals for increased damage. Increase the wounding multiplier for an impaling or any piercing attack to x3. Increase the wounding multiplier for a tight-beam burning attack to x2. Other attacks cannot target the vitals."

Basic Set: Characters, p215, regarding Pressure Secrets...
"To use this ability, you must make a successful unarmed attack. This attack is at -2 in addition to any hit location modifier... If you hit, make a Pressure Secrets roll. On a success, any damage that penetrates DR is doubled -- or tripled if you targeted the vital organs. In effect, your hands and feet have become impaling weapons!"

Martial Arts, p85, regarding Lethal Strike...
"This is a hand strike with stiffened fingers. It uses the rules for Lethal Kick..."

Martial Arts, p85, regarding Lethal Kick...
"This kick focuses all of your strength onto a toe or toes, converting your blow from crushing to piercing. This lets you target the vitals or eyes."

Hmm. Why would anyone do this...

DX 12 [40] + IQ 12 [40] + Karate 14 [12] + Trained by a Master [30] + Pressure Points 16 [20] + Pressure Secrets 12 [8] + Pressure Point Strike 14 [3] = [153] to target the vitals at effective skill 11, overcome defenses, overcome DR and then roll Pressure Secrets to possibly triple the penetrating damage...

...when he could do this?

DX 12 [40] + Karate 14 [12] + Lethal Strike 12 [0] + Targeted Attack (Lethal Strike to Vitals) 11 [3] = [55] to target the vitals at effective skill 11, overcome defenses, overcome DR and then automatically triple the penetrating damage?

Can Pressure Secrets be used with Lethal Strike to target the vitals for a possible total wounding modifier of x9?

For that matter, how can you target the vitals with Pressure Secrets unless you use Lethal Strike to convert your attack to piercing? Only impaling, piercing or tight-beam burning attacks can target the vitals, and a Pressure Secrets attack doesn't become impaling until after it has penetrated DR if you succeed on the Pressure Secrets roll. Of course, if you penetrate DR with a Lethal Strike to the vitals, you don't need to roll for Pressure Secrets because piercing attacks to the vitals get a x3 wounding modifier anyway.

Is it, in fact, the case that Pressure Secrets gives an additional wounding modifier?

If so, that certainly suits my genre sense. A realistic fighter uses difficult but realistic methods to deliver "heart punches" for x3 damage (enough to knock out and probably hospitalize most people). A true wǔxiá master uses arcane secrets like the legendary "Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique" (or whatever) for x9 damage (enough to hospitalize most people for a long time if not kill them outright).

If that is not the case, however, what's the point of learning Pressure Secrets?

You have a better chance of doing x3 damage with a build that's 98pts cheaper (and we could probably make the build even cheaper if we tinker with it, but the point is made). Where is Pressure Secrets hiding 98pts of extra utility?

lexington · 12-27-2010, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_seeker

If so, that certainly suits my genre sense. A realistic fighter uses difficult but realistic methods to deliver "heart punches" for x3 damage (enough to knock out and probably hospitalize most people). A true wǔxiá master uses arcane secrets like the legendary "Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique" (or whatever) for x9 damage (enough to hospitalize most people for a long time if not kill them outright).

A realistic fighter shouldn't be getting the x3 damage to the vitals unless he has a dagger, sword or spear.

[edit]: I see that MA considers Lethal Strike and Lethal Kick to be realistic but difficult. Huh, -2 seems like too small a penalty to explain why everyone doesn't learn to punch through a person's torso.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_seeker

If that is not the case, however, what's the point of learning Pressure Secrets?

With Pressure Secrets your hands and feet are Impaling (for x2 damage even when you don't target the vitals). With Lethal Strike and Lethal Kick your hands or feet are simply Piercing so they don't do extra damage if you miss the vitals.

the_seeker · 12-27-2010, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lexington

A realistic fighter shouldn't be getting the x3 damage to the vitals unless he has a dagger, sword or spear.

Nope. A realistic fighter can't improve the Lethal Strike technique, but he can attempt it at the standard default of -2 to skill. Any fighter can attempt a cinematic technique at default if the GM permits (Martial Arts, p82). So if the GM permits, he can target the vitals with a Lethal Strike and, if he hits and overcomes DR, he'll get the x3 wounding modifier. You might not permit this. I would.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lexington

With Pressure Secrets your hands and feet are Impaling (for x2 damage even when you don't target the vitals).

Nope. You must succeed in a Pressure Secrets roll to get the wounding modifier. If and only if you succeed on that roll, then you get the wounding modifier, and the modifier is x3 if you targeted the vitals, x2 if you did not. You get no wounding modifier if you do not succeed on that roll.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lexington

With Lethal Strike and Lethal Kick your hands or feet are simply Piercing so they don't do extra damage if you miss the vitals.

Yep. That much I agree on.

the_seeker · 12-27-2010, 10:45 AM

For clarification purposes...

I know you can use Pressure Secrets to double all your penetrating damage from locks and strikes (triple for strikes that targeted the vitals) -- your Pressure Secrets roll must succeed, of course.

My point is that without using Trained by a Master + Pressure Points 16 + Pressure Secrets X, I can build realistic characters capable of achieving the same effective results for much cheaper, and that doesn't sit well with me.

At the same point value, cinematic characters should be capable of things that realistic characters aren't. The higher the point value of a cinematic character, the more amazing he should be compared to a realistic character.

When a realistic character can not only do what a cinematic character can do but also do it better with a less expensive build, I get a very bad feeling that something is very seriously wrong somewhere in my private world.

So what I want to know (and used the Lethal Strike to the Vitals example to illustrate) is...Just what are we getting when we buy Trained by a Master + Pressure Points 16 + Pressure Secrets X? Because that's an awful lot of points to buy into the cinematic awesome sauce of Pressure Secrets, and knowing that Joe Normal over there can learn to do the same thing at the McDojo down on the corner makes me wonder why my poor character went all the way to China and put up with Pai Mei's abuse. If everyone can be special, no one is special.

As a player, being able to build realistic characters that can do effectively cinematic stuff takes away the special of the cinematic stuff for me. Being able to build realistic characters that can do effectively cinematic stuff better with less expensive builds takes away the special, does terrible things to it and then buries its remains in an unmarked grave. And then comes back and licks the red off my candy canes.

As Stephen Colbert would say, it lacks truthiness. :)

Fred Brackin · 12-27-2010, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_seeker

"For that matter, how can you target the vitals with Pressure Secrets unless you use Lethal Strike to convert your attack to piercing? Only impaling, piercing or tight-beam burning attacks can target the vitals,

Martial Arts amends this to allow Thrust/Crush to the Vitals. You just don't get the damage bonus. Certain special effects do become possible.

Also note the base damage of Lethal Strike. It is Thrust-2 or 1 pt less than a regular punch and 2pts less than an Exotic Hand strike. Some styles teach Pressure Points and possibly even Pressure secrets with weapons like staff that Thrust at +2. None of this is possible with Lethal Strike.

the_seeker · 12-27-2010, 11:08 AM

Aargh. I babble too much. Here's my attempt to be as simple and clear as practical.

It seems to me that..

IF
Karate + Targeted Attack (Lethal Strike to the Vitals)
results in a x3 wounding modifier if it hits and penetrates DR...

THEN
Trained by a Master + Karate + Pressure Points & Secrets + Targeted Attack (Lethal Pressure Point Strike to the Vitals)
should result in more than a x3 wounding modifier if it hits and penetrates DR.

MUCH more, in fact. As in "equal to an Affliction or an Imbuement" more.
It uses two cinematic skills and two cinematic techniques.
That's worth some serious awesome sauce! Show a yóuxiá some respect... <laugh>

Gef · 12-27-2010, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_seeker

At the same point value, cinematic characters should be capable of things that realistic characters aren't.

At the same point value, they should have comparable effectiveness, frex higher skill to the fellow who doesn't pay for TbaM, enabling him to soak the penalty for lethal strike targeting the vitals.

That said, try your cinematic build using a talent, 5/level, that gives a bonus on Pressure Points AND Pressure Secrets. You could add Physiology, Esoteric Medicine, Body Control, and Breath Control to round it out; as a GM I could be persuaded that these are related skills.

As stated above, Pressure Secrets + Locks is a big deal that you can't get from Lethal Strike. Remember that base damage from locks is based on a quick contest, and the arm lock technique lets you cheaply buy a +3 bonus in that contest.

GEF

Refplace · 12-27-2010, 02:03 PM

Trained By a master isnt about enhancing one ability, in this case a very specific damage type from one maneuver.
It is an advantage that adds many options to the charecter.

Cheomesh · 12-27-2010, 02:22 PM

Seeker, I understand what you're getting at. I think the problem lies in that you wouldn't take that route simply to get that effect. I think all the cinematic stuff actually opens up other stuff to you, so that 98 points of stuff is hidden in utility beyond what the McDojo guy can do.

But, I am not too good with cinematic rules and I'm a bit tired to muck with it right now. Maybe that helps?

M.

Sam Baughn · 12-27-2010, 03:28 PM

Trained by a Master gives you reduced penalties on Rapid Strikes and multiple parries, which justifies most of it's points cost. It also gives you access to a lot of abilities apart from Pressure Secrets.

Pressure Points is useful by itself. Indeed, I'd say it's more useful than Pressure Secrets.

Pressure Secrets does more damage than Lethal Strike, has less risk of injuring yourself, can be used with weapons and allows you to do double damage to the torso (which can be handy if you have to take a large penalty to your attack, to target chinks in armour, make a deceptive attack or whatever).

If the only thing you want to do is make unarmed hand strikes to the vitals of unarmoured opponents, then Lethal Strike is probably the most efficient way of doing it. But that's only one of the options a well-rounded master of pressure secrets has available to him.

12-27-2010, 09:51 AM	#1
the_seeker . Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Charlotte, NC, United States	[MA] Problem with Pressure Secrets Basic Set: Campaigns, p399, regarding Hit Location... "Certain attacks can target the vitals for increased damage. Increase the wounding multiplier for an impaling or any piercing attack to x3. Increase the wounding multiplier for a tight-beam burning attack to x2. Other attacks cannot target the vitals." Basic Set: Characters, p215, regarding Pressure Secrets... "To use this ability, you must make a successful unarmed attack. This attack is at -2 in addition to any hit location modifier... If you hit, make a Pressure Secrets roll. On a success, any damage that penetrates DR is doubled -- or tripled if you targeted the vital organs. In effect, your hands and feet have become impaling weapons!" Martial Arts, p85, regarding Lethal Strike... "This is a hand strike with stiffened fingers. It uses the rules for Lethal Kick..." Martial Arts, p85, regarding Lethal Kick... "This kick focuses all of your strength onto a toe or toes, converting your blow from crushing to piercing. This lets you target the vitals or eyes." Hmm. Why would anyone do this... DX 12 [40] + IQ 12 [40] + Karate 14 [12] + Trained by a Master [30] + Pressure Points 16 [20] + Pressure Secrets 12 [8] + Pressure Point Strike 14 [3] = [153] to target the vitals at effective skill 11, overcome defenses, overcome DR and then roll Pressure Secrets to possibly triple the penetrating damage... ...when he could do this? DX 12 [40] + Karate 14 [12] + Lethal Strike 12 [0] + Targeted Attack (Lethal Strike to Vitals) 11 [3] = [55] to target the vitals at effective skill 11, overcome defenses, overcome DR and then automatically triple the penetrating damage? Can Pressure Secrets be used with Lethal Strike to target the vitals for a possible total wounding modifier of x9? For that matter, how can you target the vitals with Pressure Secrets unless you use Lethal Strike to convert your attack to piercing? Only impaling, piercing or tight-beam burning attacks can target the vitals, and a Pressure Secrets attack doesn't become impaling until after it has penetrated DR if you succeed on the Pressure Secrets roll. Of course, if you penetrate DR with a Lethal Strike to the vitals, you don't need to roll for Pressure Secrets because piercing attacks to the vitals get a x3 wounding modifier anyway. Is it, in fact, the case that Pressure Secrets gives an additional wounding modifier? If so, that certainly suits my genre sense. A realistic fighter uses difficult but realistic methods to deliver "heart punches" for x3 damage (enough to knock out and probably hospitalize most people). A true wǔxiá master uses arcane secrets like the legendary "Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique" (or whatever) for x9 damage (enough to hospitalize most people for a long time if not kill them outright). If that is not the case, however, what's the point of learning Pressure Secrets? You have a better chance of doing x3 damage with a build that's 98pts cheaper (and we could probably make the build even cheaper if we tinker with it, but the point is made). Where is Pressure Secrets hiding 98pts of extra utility? __________________ Tim Harris The Seeker Time Lord Saving the universe one planet at a time. Occasionally from my own mistakes. Oops. Last edited by the_seeker; 12-27-2010 at 09:58 AM.

12-27-2010, 10:45 AM	#4
the_seeker . Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Charlotte, NC, United States	Re: [MA] Problem with Pressure Secrets For clarification purposes... I know you can use Pressure Secrets to double all your penetrating damage from locks and strikes (triple for strikes that targeted the vitals) -- your Pressure Secrets roll must succeed, of course. My point is that without using Trained by a Master + Pressure Points 16 + Pressure Secrets X, I can build realistic characters capable of achieving the same effective results for much cheaper, and that doesn't sit well with me. At the same point value, cinematic characters should be capable of things that realistic characters aren't. The higher the point value of a cinematic character, the more amazing he should be compared to a realistic character. When a realistic character can not only do what a cinematic character can do but also do it better with a less expensive build, I get a very bad feeling that something is very seriously wrong somewhere in my private world. So what I want to know (and used the Lethal Strike to the Vitals example to illustrate) is...Just what are we getting when we buy Trained by a Master + Pressure Points 16 + Pressure Secrets X? Because that's an awful lot of points to buy into the cinematic awesome sauce of Pressure Secrets, and knowing that Joe Normal over there can learn to do the same thing at the McDojo down on the corner makes me wonder why my poor character went all the way to China and put up with Pai Mei's abuse. If everyone can be special, no one is special. As a player, being able to build realistic characters that can do effectively cinematic stuff takes away the special of the cinematic stuff for me. Being able to build realistic characters that can do effectively cinematic stuff better with less expensive builds takes away the special, does terrible things to it and then buries its remains in an unmarked grave. And then comes back and licks the red off my candy canes. As Stephen Colbert would say, it lacks truthiness. :) __________________ Tim Harris The Seeker Time Lord Saving the universe one planet at a time. Occasionally from my own mistakes. Oops. Last edited by the_seeker; 12-27-2010 at 10:51 AM.

12-27-2010, 11:08 AM	#6
the_seeker . Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Charlotte, NC, United States	Re: [MA] Problem with Pressure Secrets Aargh. I babble too much. Here's my attempt to be as simple and clear as practical. It seems to me that.. IF Karate + Targeted Attack (Lethal Strike to the Vitals) results in a x3 wounding modifier if it hits and penetrates DR... THEN Trained by a Master + Karate + Pressure Points & Secrets + Targeted Attack (Lethal Pressure Point Strike to the Vitals) should result in more than a x3 wounding modifier if it hits and penetrates DR. MUCH more, in fact. As in "equal to an Affliction or an Imbuement" more. It uses two cinematic skills and two cinematic techniques. That's worth some serious awesome sauce! Show a yóuxiá some respect... <laugh> __________________ Tim Harris The Seeker Time Lord Saving the universe one planet at a time. Occasionally from my own mistakes. Oops.

12-27-2010, 02:03 PM	#8
Refplace Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Yukon, OK	Re: [MA] Problem with Pressure Secrets Trained By a master isnt about enhancing one ability, in this case a very specific damage type from one maneuver. It is an advantage that adds many options to the charecter.

12-27-2010, 02:22 PM	#9
Cheomesh Join Date: May 2010 Location: LP City, Maryland	Re: [MA] Problem with Pressure Secrets Seeker, I understand what you're getting at. I think the problem lies in that you wouldn't take that route simply to get that effect. I think all the cinematic stuff actually opens up other stuff to you, so that 98 points of stuff is hidden in utility beyond what the McDojo guy can do. But, I am not too good with cinematic rules and I'm a bit tired to muck with it right now. Maybe that helps? M.

12-27-2010, 03:28 PM	#10
Sam Baughn Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: United Kingdom of Great Britain and some other bits.	Re: [MA] Problem with Pressure Secrets Trained by a Master gives you reduced penalties on Rapid Strikes and multiple parries, which justifies most of it's points cost. It also gives you access to a lot of abilities apart from Pressure Secrets. Pressure Points is useful by itself. Indeed, I'd say it's more useful than Pressure Secrets. Pressure Secrets does more damage than Lethal Strike, has less risk of injuring yourself, can be used with weapons and allows you to do double damage to the torso (which can be handy if you have to take a large penalty to your attack, to target chinks in armour, make a deceptive attack or whatever). If the only thing you want to do is make unarmed hand strikes to the vitals of unarmoured opponents, then Lethal Strike is probably the most efficient way of doing it. But that's only one of the options a well-rounded master of pressure secrets has available to him.