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Old 12-18-2010, 10:30 AM   #21
Dinadon
 
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Default Re: Beats Suck(?)

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Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
Thus, is it your point that these are the only things Beat is useful for? You'll note I point this out in the OP.

Do you have any suggestions as to how to bring it more into line with Feint, so that characters without unbelievable amounts of strength can take advantage of it too?
What, in the same way that it takes high amounts of DX to be good at feinting? High skill helps both, buying up the feint technique helps both, and both are only truly useful if you can guarantee succeeding by a reasonable margin regularly. To be honest, the most glaring issue with the expanded feint rules is that someone can always use a DX based roll to resist. I think its Icelander who has changed it so that beats are only resisted with ST.

I don't see much point trying to give high DX, low ST characters more incentive to use beat beyond raising their ST. In the same way I don't see much point trying to give high ST, low DX characters one for feint. Anyway, I won't argue that feint is superior in a one-on-one match up, because it is. Which is also why I don't think much of your example. Aside from the fact that strong guy is really lopsided, and isn't really a challenge so why consider him at all? You don't present a situation in which beat can make full use of the rules it has. If you have one person really good at beats, and his two competent buddies, how quickly do you think they can take down a single competent opponent? How about if the three buddies are equal, and any one could initiate a beat? What if there are only two buddies?

Beat and feint are tactically different combat options, and an interesting choice if their level is fairly equal. However changing beat without having a proper look at the situations where it is suppose to be more useful (in this case, group based combat) is a flawed method of reasoning.
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Old 12-18-2010, 10:33 AM   #22
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Default Re: Beats Suck(?)

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Originally Posted by Gef View Post
Regarding the game mechanic, I concur with your conclusion, Mailanka.

In my fencing experience, though, "beats" work better than this. You don't have to parry first, ...
I suspect that's a result of the rules being generic. A lot of guard positions keep the weapon somewhere out of reach of the opponent, to keep the weapon arm safe, avoid beats, and cock the body for a powerful strike or parry. While some styles with some weapons favour guards with the weapon extended out in front where it could be Beaten, trying to figure out whether a fighter was in one type of position or another would be a lot of complication for not much benefit. Whereas after a Parry or Block you know both weapons are out in front somewhere close together.

Beats have never come up in my games, so I don't have a strong opinion on the rules. Icelander has posted some house rules somewhere.
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Old 12-18-2010, 11:24 AM   #23
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Default Re: Beats Suck(?)

Indeed, much of the issue isn't that Beats suck, but rather that Beats against abysmally-low ST characters suck. If I have ST 10 DX 10, and my opponent has 5 and 15, I get NO advantage from choosing Beat over Feint.
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Old 12-18-2010, 12:02 PM   #24
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Default Re: Beats Suck(?)

For a big guy, like a ST 16+ fighter, with DX 12 or so(that ST is expensive) gains a good bit from beats, especially if using his sword to parry alot. It's not always a big deal, but the extra 4 points or so of bonus for beating are down right handy.
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Old 12-18-2010, 12:30 PM   #25
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Default Re: Beats Suck(?)

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Originally Posted by Dinadon View Post
I don't see much point trying to give high DX, low ST characters more incentive to use beat beyond raising their ST.
Then why post to the thread?

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In the same way I don't see much point trying to give high ST, low DX characters one for feint.
But he has one. He has many, actually. If his opponent is proficient in at least 2 defenses, Feint is superior to Beat, even if you're stronger than you're dextrous. Or if your opponent is quite strong but not particularly dextrous, a feint will force him to defend with dexterity, rather than strength. Beat has no comparable advantages.

Basically, "Beat exists so strong guys with low dex can feint too," and I find that unsatisfying.

Quote:
Anyway, I won't argue that feint is superior in a one-on-one match up, because it is. Which is also why I don't think much of your example.
In the sense that the example proves the obvious? Perhaps.

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Aside from the fact that strong guy is really lopsided,
Because I'm exaggerating to make a point.

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and isn't really a challenge so why consider him at all?
Because he outlines a principle.

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You don't present a situation in which beat can make full use of the rules it has.
Please! Show me what those advantages are!

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If you have one person really good at beats, and his two competent buddies, how quickly do you think they can take down a single competent opponent?
Two guys versus one don't need beats to win. And anyway, I chose to highlight duels for a reason. People use beats in duels all the time in real life, and yet, they're not useful in a duel here. I'm planning on running a game that will feature duels. Can you show me how a beat is useful in one-on-one, without digging into "Well, if you're really strong..."?

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Beat and feint are tactically different combat options, and an interesting choice if their level is fairly equal.
So far everything I've seen in this thread suggests that they aren't interesting choices. If you're roughly equal in strength and dex, or you have more dex than strength, feint is always superior (except for a few very situational circumstances). The only time one uses Beats is if you're trying to set up someone for an ally, of if you're much stronger than you are dextrous. You are an ogre, for example. Am I wrong? Is there something else I'm missing? Those aren't interesting choices or tactically different options. Those are "My character is X, so I always use Y." It's a character creation consideration, not an in-the-heat-of-battle "What should I use now?" choice.

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However changing beat without having a proper look at the situations where it is suppose to be more useful (in this case, group based combat) is a flawed method of reasoning.
No kidding, hence the thread.
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Old 12-18-2010, 12:32 PM   #26
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Default Re: Beats Suck(?)

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Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
For a big guy, like a ST 16+ fighter, with DX 12 or so(that ST is expensive) gains a good bit from beats, especially if using his sword to parry alot. It's not always a big deal, but the extra 4 points or so of bonus for beating are down right handy.
Thanks for that.
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Old 12-18-2010, 12:35 PM   #27
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Default Re: Beats Suck(?)

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Indeed, much of the issue isn't that Beats suck, but rather that Beats against abysmally-low ST characters suck. If I have ST 10 DX 10, and my opponent has 5 and 15, I get NO advantage from choosing Beat over Feint.
That's a problem too. Icelander's option certainly make Beats more interesting. Then, it doesn't matter what your DX and ST are, but how your ST compares to your opponent's (ie "I am stronger than you, therefore, I have an advantage when I beat").

I'm not sure you should use both Icelander's fix and the other fixes suggested here ("Beats act as both defensive feints and standard feints against the weapon they affect" and "It can possibly make that weapon unready"), though. I suspect one or the other is sufficient.
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Old 12-18-2010, 12:52 PM   #28
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Default Re: Beats Suck(?)

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Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
Incorrect:



It's not a beat, but a Beat, and he even quotes the page number.
Reading the notes on kendo vs kenjutsu, I see my error. Nothing you do in kendo is a Beat. It's too big, and first to make a good clean hit wins.

Kenjutsu can afford to have real Beats...after all, the match ends when you kill the other guy.
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Old 12-18-2010, 01:03 PM   #29
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Default Re: Beats Suck(?)

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Reading the notes on kendo vs kenjutsu, I see my error. Nothing you do in kendo is a Beat. It's too big, and first to make a good clean hit wins.

Kenjutsu can afford to have real Beats...after all, the match ends when you kill the other guy.
Well, you're also not wrong about Beats, as written, only being useful to big, monstrous guys who slam swords around, and that's not what you'd see in a Kenjutsu fight. Samurai are not known for being brawny and barbaric. This is actually my complaint about the situation. I want to run a game that features Kenjutsu, and I want to have the Beats front and center because I believe that they're stylistically important, but as written, there's no reason for an agile samurai to use them ever, only the hulking guy with the big no-dachi.
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Old 12-18-2010, 03:27 PM   #30
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Default Re: Beats Suck(?)

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
I suspect that's a result of the rules being generic. A lot of guard positions keep the weapon somewhere out of reach of the opponent, to keep the weapon arm safe, avoid beats, and cock the body for a powerful strike or parry. While some styles with some weapons favour guards with the weapon extended out in front where it could be Beaten, trying to figure out whether a fighter was in one type of position or another would be a lot of complication for not much benefit. Whereas after a Parry or Block you know both weapons are out in front somewhere close together.

Beats have never come up in my games, so I don't have a strong opinion on the rules. Icelander has posted some house rules somewhere.
You might be able to represent that using the rules for focused defense (sideways stances) from GURPS Martial Arts: Gladiators, though they aren't written as having any specific effect on Beats.
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