Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > In Nomine

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-16-2010, 07:52 PM   #11
Jason
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Boston, MA
Default Re: Origins or Design Base

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archangel Beth View Post
Malak Habbalah, if I recall correctly, are listed in one of the appendices of Gustav Davidson's A Dictionary of Angels. I think it was in a "scary/punishing" context, too. I believe I also found a possible source for Mercurians in that book, too. It's really excellent.
I am leafing through this book now and just came upon the entry, which reminded me of this thread. It goes: "Malakim ('kings')—an order of angels equated with the virtues. The ruling prince is variously designated Peliel, Uriel, Uzziel, Raphael." (p. 181)
Jason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2010, 10:41 PM   #12
Archangel Beth
In Nomine Line Editor
 
Archangel Beth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Frozen Wastelands of NH
Default Re: Origins or Design Base

That's one of them -- the Malak Habbalah, though, are back in the Appendix somewhere. Near the Grigori, I think? I can't dig out the book right yet -- it still has glass shards on it. >_<
__________________
--Beth
Shamelessly adding Superiors: Lilith and her fiction page to her .sig (the latter is not precisely gaming related)
Archangel Beth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2010, 03:28 PM   #13
Orlin
 
Orlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Origins or Design Base

I'm pretty sure that "Kyriotete" is Greek plural for "Lords." You may also see other variant spellings ("Malachim," "Malakh," "Ophanim," etc.) because a lot of the names you see in the core guide come from transliterations of old languages that used different characters.

The only name that ever bothered me was the Djinn, because they seemed like they were just more suitable as Ethereals.
__________________
"A knight's a sword with a horse. The vows, the sacred oil and the lady's favors, they're ribbons tied 'round the sword. Maybe the sword's prettier with the ribbons, but it'll kill you just as dead."
Orlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2010, 07:48 PM   #14
Archangel Beth
In Nomine Line Editor
 
Archangel Beth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Frozen Wastelands of NH
Default Re: Origins or Design Base

Yeah, Djinn are pretty obviously, to me, a bit of a stretch along the lines of "What do we call Fallen Cherubim?" I haven't ever found a term I liked more, though, plus changing an entire Band name is probably a bit more errata than SJ would really approve of. *beth snaps her fingers*
__________________
--Beth
Shamelessly adding Superiors: Lilith and her fiction page to her .sig (the latter is not precisely gaming related)
Archangel Beth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2010, 12:47 AM   #15
Orlin
 
Orlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Origins or Design Base

For what it's worth, I had a few ideas. Unfortunately, the more I read up, the more confused I became. There was a point where I'd actually considered re-naming all seven choirs to see if I couldn't make all of them more in-keeping with classical Judeo-Christian themes, but eventually I gave up. Now, after having read a lot of IN fanfiction, the thought of changing anything (even the name of the Djinn) is a stretch.

One really curious thing that I noticed about the way the names for the Choirs is that you guys did your best to put a Greek equivalent as most of the alternate names. If the name was already in Greek (such as is the case with Kyriotates), you guys generally stuck with what was closest to Judeo-Christian lore. There were only a few that caught me off guard (calling the Cherubim "Chayoth" was strange, because I tend to think of the Chayoth Ha-Kodesh, which were the angels described in Ezekiel.) I have to give credit where credit is due; a lot of research must have gone into that.

I just ordered Gustav Davidson's, A Dictionary of Angels: Including Fallen Angels, by the way! I'm really excited.
__________________
"A knight's a sword with a horse. The vows, the sacred oil and the lady's favors, they're ribbons tied 'round the sword. Maybe the sword's prettier with the ribbons, but it'll kill you just as dead."
Orlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2010, 01:58 AM   #16
Jason
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Boston, MA
Default Re: Origins or Design Base

I'm still lobbying for describing "Djinn" as a colloquial name (like "Stalkers") for a band technically called Se'irim (a demon in Jewish lore described between various sources as being hairy, distinct from shedim ... and identical in appearance to djinn).

You might also find this list of "cosmetic changes" interesting, with different names for various choirs/bands/superiors. Some of the suggestions do introduce points of confusion, though (e.g., renaming Dominic to Daniel raises the question of what to name the angel who stands with Hutriel at the gate of Hell).
Jason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2010, 12:16 PM   #17
Orlin
 
Orlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Origins or Design Base

Funny you should say that!

I sometimes have a tendency to go overboard with it, but I started this thread based around precisely the link you gave me. I don't necessarily agree with all of the cosmetic changes (I'm not a huge fan of Dominic, but when thinking on a suitable replacement name I flounder between Daniel and Karmael.) I also have a tendency of wanting to find some source that helps substantiate that x name has y meaning, but I don't know ancient Hebrew so most of the time I think I just accept that I'll usually have to gamble.

For what it's worth, I saw a thread on renaming the Djinn Band. Was that you?

The only Choir name that has ever rubbed me a little the wrong way have been the "Mercurians." I guess for the same reason as the Djinn? I'm kind of stoked about this new book that Beth recommended a few months ago, especially since I just now went back and looked over it.

The thing is, if you don't cement cosmetic changes for your players before the game begins, you invite confusion. The first IN game I ran, I had all these grand ideas for ways to change the naming scheme, history and hierarchy -- but once my players started poking through the core book, it was too difficult for me to tell them, "Oh yeah, I don't use those distinctions. Or that history. Also, I don't have anything written -- well, nothing finished -- but all those names are going to be different."

If I ever run another In Nomine game, there are some things I'd change. I've given a lot of thought to a Heretical History, but...blegh. So much work for something that's already there and already very interesting, and in the end, you sort of have to ask yourself, "What's the purpose?" In my case, it's about turning that brightness level down a notch or two and giving the game a slightly heavier religious overtone.

The main issue I have with IN (apart from the thought that sometimes it's a tad too bright) is Satan. The one thing I really liked about Demon the Fallen (even if I didn't particularly care for Demon the Fallen itself -- too tragic) was that Satan was...such a character. In some ways, he was more of a character than any of the PC's could ever be. The trouble is, if you humanize and romanticize Satan too much, you risk portraying God like an extremely negligent parent.

Currently, I've picked up a book by the name of AD 999. Very interesting story - very inspiring, and something I think I'd recommend for In Nomine fans. Essentially, Satan and Loki are conspiring with one another to bring about both Ragnarok and the Apocalypse, and all of it takes place during a time where human minds were a little more malleable. I've never been big into Historical fantasy (even pseudo-historical fantasy), but this looks like it could be fun.
__________________
"A knight's a sword with a horse. The vows, the sacred oil and the lady's favors, they're ribbons tied 'round the sword. Maybe the sword's prettier with the ribbons, but it'll kill you just as dead."
Orlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2010, 12:37 PM   #18
Rocket Man
Petitioner: Word of IN Filk
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Longmont, CO
Default Re: Origins or Design Base

I noted that the link didn't have an alternate name for Litheroy. May I suggest Ithuriel, which means "Discovery of God?" In Paradise Lost, he's the one who finds a disguised Satan in the Garden of Eden and forces him to resume his true form. (And it looks like Milton found Ithuriel already in the lore, rather than making him up out of whole cloth.)
__________________
“It's not railroading if you offer the PCs tickets and they stampede to the box office, waving their money. Metaphorically speaking”
--Elizabeth McCoy, In Nomine Line Editor

Author: "What Doesn't Kill Me Makes Me Stronger"

Last edited by Rocket Man; 12-21-2010 at 10:07 PM. Reason: Typo fix
Rocket Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2010, 09:45 PM   #19
Jason
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Boston, MA
Default Re: Origins or Design Base

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlin View Post
Funny you should say that!

I sometimes have a tendency to go overboard with it, but I started this thread based around precisely the link you gave me.
Oops. I do have a tendency to repeat myself.

Quote:
For what it's worth, I saw a thread on renaming the Djinn Band. Was that you?
I didn't start that thread, but I did toss in a couple suggestions. My favorite remains Se'irim, but I share your concern about renaming things after my players have already started playing. They have enough of a hard time as it is remembering the names and properties of things I didn't change.

Quote:
The main issue I have with IN (apart from the thought that sometimes it's a tad too bright) is Satan. The one thing I really liked about Demon the Fallen (even if I didn't particularly care for Demon the Fallen itself -- too tragic) was that Satan was...such a character. In some ways, he was more of a character than any of the PC's could ever be. The trouble is, if you humanize and romanticize Satan too much, you risk portraying God like an extremely negligent parent.
I am having a good time dealing with this issue in one of my own campaigns, but to do so, I am skirting pretty far from canon. (Don't read this if you play with me.)

Spoiler:  
Jason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2010, 01:08 AM   #20
ISNorden
 
ISNorden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Madison, WI
Default Re: Origins or Design Base

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Man View Post
Well, I suppose Hebrew could have punsters, too. :-) (Especially since the Choir's teritary In Nomine name is "The Kings.")

More seriously, one word may be derived from the other. From what I can find, Malak, when not used for angels, most commonly referred to a king's envoy/messenger.
Actually, the words for "angel/messenger" (malach) and for "king" (melech) are spelled identically in Hebrew...a situation that may have inspired an Old Testament-style pun when SJG needed an alternate title for the Virtues.
__________________
Ingeborg S. Nordén
ISNorden is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
meta

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.