Ship warfare before cannons

[Dangerious P. Cats]

Mass fire between ships migh also be a good tactic. If most of a ship, and therefore it's crew are exposed killing the crew and then taking the ship would be really nifty.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Þorkell

Do stats for warships of TL 0-4 appear in LTC2?

I was gaming yesterday and one of us was browsing LT and noticed that there was no trireme or (Viking) longship in the book.

That was deliberate policy: most warships have very large crews, and the PCs would be just a minor element in the ship's combat actions, whether these consisted of ramming, or standing off and firing broadsides. It's hard to come up with meaningful heroic actions for everyone in a party. Hence they were reserved to LTC2, which has stats for varied ships from TL1 through 4, including both of those you name.

Bill Stoddard

[Azinctus]

Originally Posted by Michele

...well,... or in the back by the oar of the crewman sitting behind him.

Have I made a mistake? Don't rowers face the stern, unless the rammer is overhauling them from the stern they will be hit in the chest. If they are hit in the back then the speed of the collision will be much lower and they'll have more time to lift their oars.

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by Dangerious P. Cats

How can naval warfare be conducted without cannons at Tech levels 0-3 (maybe 4 even) outside of boarding actions?

Iron prows and ramming speed were sometimes used. This was far from ideal, impact could damage the attacking ship even sink them, though they were built to ram more breakable enemy ships.

[Agramer]

Originally Posted by Dangerious P. Cats

Mass fire between ships migh also be a good tactic. If most of a ship, and therefore it's crew are exposed killing the crew and then taking the ship would be really nifty.

Greek Triremes had exposed rowers(from sides,and deck wasnt full-it was just covering 50% of "roof";later when rovers were enclosed for protection heat inside was tremendous),so archer fire can be very effective.

Originally Posted by whswhs

That was deliberate policy: most warships have very large crews, and the PCs would be just a minor element in the ship's combat actions, whether these consisted of ramming, or standing off and firing broadsides. It's hard to come up with meaningful heroic actions for everyone in a party. Hence they were reserved to LTC2, which has stats for varied ships from TL1 through 4, including both of those you name.

Bill Stoddard

Greek Triremes had 10-20 Hoplites,PCs as few of those could very well "singlehandedly" decide engagement.

Originally Posted by Azinctus

Have I made a mistake? Don't rowers face the stern, unless the rammer is overhauling them from the stern they will be hit in the chest. If they are hit in the back then the speed of the collision will be much lower and they'll have more time to lift their oars.

True

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

Iron prows and ramming speed were sometimes used. This was far from ideal, impact could damage the attacking ship even sink them, though they were built to ram more breakable enemy ships.

Rams were extension of Keel,thus whole ship would redistribute energy of hit.
Also ,if were talking about Triremes and alike, those ships didnt have Ribs so their sides were very vulnerable.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Agramer

Greek Triremes had 10-20 Hoplites,PCs as few of those could very well "singlehandedly" decide engagement.

Certainly that's true. But boarding actions weren't the primary function of a trireme. An authentically played trireme would have most of its engagements leave the PCs sitting on deck while the ship rammed another ship amidships, or sheared off its oars.

Bill Stoddard

[Agramer]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Certainly that's true. But boarding actions weren't the primary function of a trireme. An authentically played trireme would have most of its engagements leave the PCs sitting on deck while the ship rammed another ship amidships, or sheared off its oars.

Bill Stoddard

True,Triremes were primarily ramming ships,though in many big battles(Salamis..etc) during battle clusters ,of ships intermingled, were "created" (with multiple ships being skewered by rams inside that whole mess)with some very vicious fighting all over them.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Agramer

True,Triremes were primarily ramming ships,though in many big battles(Salamis..etc) during battle clusters ,of ships intermingled, were "created" (with multiple ships being skewered by rams inside that whole mess)with some very vicious fighting all over them.

On the other hand, in a big battle like that, a single ship and its crew are even less likely to make the difference.

The trireme will be in LTC2, and it will actually be fairly closely based on physical reality, because we have real performance stats for a trireme in modern times. We aren't excluding it. We're just not putting it in the primary "adventurers' gear" book, because really, it isn't.

Bill Stoddard

[Polydamas]

Bill, will the Kyrenia ship make it into LTC2, or was it just salvaged to get stats for the Fishing Boat?

Originally Posted by Agramer

Rams were extension of Keel,thus whole ship would redistribute energy of hit.

Also ,if were talking about Triremes and alike, those ships didnt have Ribs so their sides were very vulnerable.

There are lots of references to ancient ships getting into trouble when ramming, from getting stuck to having the ram break off. We are unsure how fast 'ramming speed' was ... its even possible that when ramming the sides or rear, a trireme backpaddled at the last moment to avoid hitting too hard and getting stuck. It wouldn't take a very fast hit to pop some seams.

Like I said earlier, for ancient Mediterramean warfare the dichotomy is not "ramming vs. boarding" but "ram prow to prow or try to manoever around and hit a weak spot". Marines had a role to play in both strategies.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Bill, will the Kyrenia ship make it into LTC2, or was it just salvaged to get stats for the Fishing Boat?

If I remember correctly which it was, it was used for one of the bigger boats in LT. I'm sure it didn't get into LTC2.

Bill Stoddard