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Old 10-09-2010, 08:42 AM   #41
JCD
 
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Default Re: In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned?

Okay, so here is what we seem to agree upon:

* We like the fact that it's very hard to kill our characters permanently, but not so bothered by the fact that we lose vessels. In fact, we want to be able to lose vessels faster (or optimally, help someone else lose vessels faster).

* Superior interaction seems to be a GM specific function, not a canon one.

* No one likes the Third Side Option (I was throwing it out there to see how it would play.)

* The current Disturbance rules suck. I've seen a bunch of alternatives on the other thread. Do any of them tickle your fancies?

* Humans should be stronger and more skilled, though we risk diluting the specialness of the Celestials. At the very least, the human free skills should be included in Core.

*Everyone wants Grigori

* Everyone wants to feed the prior editor to wolvererines...I mean we'd politely request a better layout.

* Most of us want to change unconsciousness rules. In fact, the combat rules in general need a good thrashing.

* There is a strong undercurrent of wanting cheaper attunements and free vessels
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Old 10-09-2010, 10:51 AM   #42
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Default Re: In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned?

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Originally Posted by JCD View Post

* No one likes the Third Side Option (I was throwing it out there to see how it would play.)
This, I think, may be phrased too strongly. I think it's more to the case of "Most of feel a Third Side shouldn't be part of the core setting, but should be presented as a GM's option in a separate book, for those who want it."
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Old 10-09-2010, 01:33 PM   #43
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Default Re: In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned?

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* Everyone wants to feed the prior editor to wolvererines...I mean we'd politely request a better layout.
Considering who the prior editors were, I want to know what was in the water they were drinking at the time... O.o
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Old 10-12-2010, 07:19 AM   #44
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Default Re: In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned?

The mechanics for Free Skills for Mortals being codified into Core is a hard one for me. Part of what I love of IN is how much stuff provides alternative suggestions to tailor your gaming experience. So instead of CPG alt. mechanics being incorporated into canon and "defined," I'd dig more elaboration of said alt. mechanics through examples.

From my experience, I find allotting points to Profession and Everyday Life skill sets (pre-selected by GM) to be better for my needs. I mean, if I deal with a white collar worker who lives in suburban America, they are going to have a very different skill set than an Afghani shepherd. Suddenly professional and everyday life skills are radically different, but still critically important.

I personally use a mix of Routine Actions + Free Skills for Mortals. (Knowing that other alternate rules to keep mortals capable is in the CPG is reassuring. I can't think of which ones I'd part with if we had to establish a canonical way to beef up mortals.) Even still, humans are quite squishy -- but that's as it should be. Humans don't really get spare vessels, therefore combat with creatures who do should be petrifying. However, I don't have "Sunday drivers of death!" 10-car-pile-up flying all over my games either.

Now, I could go for a Core elaboration of how to set up such alternates, i.e. Free Skills for Mortals. Currently I do 6 Char. pts. for each Profession and Everyday Life set, and place anywhere between 4-8 skills within each skill set to choose from (with occasional overlap, depending). Dunno if giving equal points to both profession and everyday life is the best way to go, so having a few layout recommendations for this could be nice in Core.
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Old 10-12-2010, 07:35 AM   #45
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Default Re: In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned?

Azel,

I am not certain what you mean by the difference between the 'free' skill set and the Profession and Lifestyle skill set that you use.

Could you give me an example? (Bear in mind that the suggested skill set in CPG is based on a human who grew up in America. Trips to the pool, learning to drive, finding one's way around town are all rights of passage. Obviously a kid from Afganistan would be much different)
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Old 10-12-2010, 09:50 AM   #46
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Default Re: In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned?

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Originally Posted by JCD View Post
* Everyone wants to feed the prior editor to wolvererines...I mean we'd politely request a better layout.
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Originally Posted by Archangel Beth View Post
Considering who the prior editors were, I want to know what was in the water they were drinking at the time... O.o
Well, it did win an Origins award for graphic design, so it was pretty even though it wasn't optimally functional. And honestly, when it was brand shiny new, that may have been the priority. Cool graphics moves the book out of a store faster than a cool index, or cool grouping of Resources, Servitors, etc ...

Of course, now it's an online product, a "veteran" product, and has an Archangel of Archives/Demon Princess of Nitpicking overseeing it. All of which would hopefully bump functionality up the priority list.
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“It's not railroading if you offer the PCs tickets and they stampede to the box office, waving their money. Metaphorically speaking”
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Old 10-12-2010, 01:56 PM   #47
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Default Re: In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned?

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Well, it did win an Origins award for graphic design, so it was pretty even though it wasn't optimally functional. And honestly, when it was brand shiny new, that may have been the priority. Cool graphics moves the book out of a store faster than a cool index, or cool grouping of Resources, Servitors, etc ...

Of course, now it's an online product, a "veteran" product, and has an Archangel of Archives/Demon Princess of Nitpicking overseeing it. All of which would hopefully bump functionality up the priority list.
Well it's perfectly possible to have pretty artwork AND be well organized! It's not an "either/or" thing. And pretty artwork may sell the book to one person, but organization will make it easier to run, which will lead to that person being more likely to introduce it to a group and sell more copies!
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Old 10-12-2010, 02:27 PM   #48
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Default Re: In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned?

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Well it's perfectly possible to have pretty artwork AND be well organized! It's not an "either/or" thing. And pretty artwork may sell the book to one person, but organization will make it easier to run, which will lead to that person being more likely to introduce it to a group and sell more copies!
Agreed on all counts! I was just engaging in reckless and irresponsible speculation based on a single data point. :-)
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“It's not railroading if you offer the PCs tickets and they stampede to the box office, waving their money. Metaphorically speaking”
--Elizabeth McCoy, In Nomine Line Editor

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Old 10-13-2010, 06:05 AM   #49
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Default Re: In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned?

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Originally Posted by JCD View Post
Azel,

I am not certain what you mean by the difference between the 'free' skill set and the Profession and Lifestyle skill set that you use.

Could you give me an example? (Bear in mind that the suggested skill set in CPG is based on a human who grew up in America. Trips to the pool, learning to drive, finding one's way around town are all rights of passage. Obviously a kid from Afganistan would be much different)
Basically it was within the CPG alternative rules for skills (p.24.) for free skill points for mortals. Of the 5 alternate rules to assist humans, I found Free Skill Points and Routine Actions the most helpful, personally. The other three are Simplified Skill Resolution (a shade more complex routine action), Specialization (bonus to TN roll), and Mastery (bump skill's base characteristic to 6 for TN roll) -- and though useful are a bit more specialized to NPCs that stand out more in the game.

Free Skill Points had a suggestion to give points to mortals for the advantage of being raised on earth. So whatever range of skills would be culturally expected in an area, the average mortal adult would have several skill points towards them. This I call Everyday Life skills because it's shorter than the above, and is flexible for whatever cultural background the game resides in.

You could also have profession skill points. These would be free (the book recommends 6 pts) because the player lived through obtaining them on earth. This is unlike a celestial hopping into a new vessel with a role -- they'd have to buy up those skills because it is assumed they did not live through the vessel's role's professional development.

Since I liked the idea so much, I included both as a way to add free skill points to my humans. Further, I threw in their recommendation for 3 free skill points for one's mother tongue. The end result is an extra 15 skill pts for mortals just for living on earth. It tends to also highlight how humans can spot non-humans doing things "weird." Still doesn't let humans directly compete because of the base characteristic discrepancy. But it shows how much time and effort has gone into practicing certain skills for humans versus ethereals and celestials.

In Example.
Afghani shepherd youth (around 16 yrs of age):
6 Everyday Life skill pts. 6 Profession skill pts. These free points may be spent within their appropriate skill set, up to a skill lvl of 3.
Everyday Life skill set: Knowledge (local tribal/warlord politics), Languages*, Ranged Weapon (rifle), Savoir-Faire (a hospitality culture w/ lots of tribal politics), Survival
Profession skill set: Climbing, Ranged Weapon (rifle), Survival, Tracking

* Since knowing other languages is so crucial for survival in a polyglot war-torn area, GM could give a 2-for-1 special on learning a 2nd & 3rd language.

Result:
Everyday Life = Knowledge (local tribal politics) +1, Ranged Weapon (rifle) +2, Savior-Faire +1, Survival +2
Profession = Climbing +2, Survival +1, Tracking +3

Free Skills: Climbing/2, Knowledge (local tribal politics)/1, Language (mother tongue)/3, Ranged Weapon (rifle)/2, Savoir-Faire/1, Survival/3, Tracking/3

Use character creation points to boost from there.

It's not for everyone's game, but I found it useful running humans in IN. Humans gain a subtle flexibility to survive against a celestial's power advantage. This isn't the only way to run this alt. rule either. But an example for such things could help GMs conceptualize whether this is an alteration they would find useful. Some may want direct power for humans, others more subtle resilience, but either way keeping these alt rules from being "canonized" helps stave off power creep and keeps GM diversity fresh, i think.
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Old 10-13-2010, 07:02 AM   #50
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Default Re: In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned?

Oh. Please excuse me. I misread what you had said. I thought you didn't like doing things that way. I totally agree that that is the best way to do that.
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