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Old 09-08-2010, 04:04 PM   #41
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
It doesn't. DR cannot stop injury. There is no ambiguity about this.

By definition, injury is after DR. DR stops damage, which is why its name is "Damage Resistance" (not "injury Resistance").
Which is why we have 'Injury Tolerance: Damage Reduction', correct? Oh wait, that makes absolutely no sense. I don't think 'damage' and 'injury' are as clearly delimited as you think. You may be correct about the way the rules are intended to be used (and your rules are much harder to abuse), but I wouldn't call the existing rules perfectly clear.
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Old 09-08-2010, 04:09 PM   #42
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

And that's why, Rev Kitty, I'm confused.
If Wolverine falls off a tower-block and lands on his skull he's uninjured.
If he is wearing a helmet, he suffers a Blunt Trauma injury...
So to stop him being injured you'd have to apply the DR in the best possible order for the character. That's naughty;)
I'd rather just read Blunt Trauma is Crushing Damage, then Rigid Armour, unless Innate, counts as Flexible for Falls.
Perhaps where I'm going wrong is that Wolverine's armoured skull is not innate?
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Old 09-08-2010, 04:22 PM   #43
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

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Originally Posted by jacobmuller View Post
I'm treating the first 16 as Flexible and would treat the remaining 2 as rigid.

Would I let a 15pt attack do 3 points of BT?
Yes and No
either:
innate DR stops Blunt Trauma Injury;
or
it doesn't. B378 because "Damage Resistance (DR) rates the degree of protection [snip] against damage." "Subtract DR from basic damage." B379: "injury due to blunt trauma [snip] is actual injury, not basic damage."

A character wearing leather and TL5 Chainmail (DR9/5*) is clubbed for 5 damage; 1 point of Blunt Trauma if it's his body or limbs. Would his Skull stop it?
Subtract the 2 rigid DR first. That leaves 13 against flexible. 2 points of Blunt Trauma.

Otherwise, if you subtract the 16 flexible DR first, and say that means 3 points of blunt trauma that the 2 points of rigid DR do not affect, you are not letting the rigid DR have any effect whatsoever. Conversely, if you say that the underlayer of rigid DR works against the blunt trauma from the flexible DR, you open the door to a tiny bit of rigid DR (1/5 of the amount of flexible) making it as though none of the DR were flexible. Neither choice is good.
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Old 09-08-2010, 04:22 PM   #44
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Which is why we have 'Injury Tolerance: Damage Reduction', correct?
And the alternative would have been to call it "Injury Tolerance: Injury Reduction," which would have prompted far more of an outcry about the stupid name. In GURPS, it's important to read the effects of a trait, not to just look at its name. Some things are named a certain way because a literal naming would just sound silly.

Quote:
I don't think 'damage' and 'injury' are as clearly delimited as you think.
The Basic Set separates them, and explains the difference, on pp. B377-379 (Damage and Injury). If anything there is unclear, please let me know and I'll do my best to clarify it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacobmuller View Post
And that's why, Rev Kitty, I'm confused.
If Wolverine falls off a tower-block and lands on his skull he's uninjured.
If he is wearing a helmet, he suffers a Blunt Trauma injury...
No. That's not correct. Reread my original post.

If you have enough rigid DR to stop an incoming attack, then you never suffer blunt trauma. For example, say you're wearing DR 10F cloth armor over DR 10 rigid armor and you're hit for 10 points of damage. Do you take blunt trauma? No, because your rigid armor stops it. Now reverse the armors. Does anything change? No, because your rigid armor stops it. You're never penalized (with respect to injury) for having extra armor.

Quote:
I'd rather just read Blunt Trauma is Crushing Damage, then Rigid Armour, unless Innate, counts as Flexible for Falls.
If that would make GURPS' blunt trauma rules easier for you to use, then feel free, of course. I'm all for house rules.

Quote:
Perhaps where I'm going wrong is that Wolverine's armoured skull is not innate?
Sure it is.
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Last edited by PK; 09-08-2010 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 09-08-2010, 04:23 PM   #45
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

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Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
It doesn't. DR cannot stop injury. There is no ambiguity about this.

By definition, injury is after DR. DR stops damage, which is why its name is "Damage Resistance" (not "injury Resistance").

By the time you're applying blunt trauma injury, DR is no longer part of the equation.
Which is why you have to apply the 2 DR from the skull first in these cases, because otherwise it has no effect at all.
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Old 09-08-2010, 05:01 PM   #46
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

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Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
No. That's not correct. Reread my original post.
Okay
So, 10 damage from a fall v's DR16 rigid helmet and DR2 skull... No damage penetrates but the fall means helmet is counted as flexible. For such cases, I should just take the innate DR from the damage first, not the worn armour first, then find BT injury penetrating the armour based on the remaining damage? 10-2/5 = 1HP lost?
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Sure it is.
TQ{cue Dr Evil laughter}

Hmm, doesn't he get shot in the forehead and pass out in one movie? That might be Knockdown but it requires a Shock penalty and that means injury... Poetic license sucks:)
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Old 09-08-2010, 05:09 PM   #47
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
Which is why you have to apply the 2 DR from the skull first in these cases, because otherwise it has no effect at all.
TQ. It finally penetrated[LOL]
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Old 09-08-2010, 05:52 PM   #48
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

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Originally Posted by jacobmuller View Post
Okay
So, 10 damage from a fall v's DR16 rigid helmet and DR2 skull... No damage penetrates but the fall means helmet is counted as flexible. For such cases, I should just take the innate DR from the damage first, not the worn armour first, then find BT injury penetrating the armour based on the remaining damage? 10-2/5 = 1HP lost?
Exactly. Blunt Trauma Injury is based on the amount of damage stopped by flexible armor. If you have DR 2 rigid and the rest is flexible, then at most, you'll be stopping (damage-2) with flexible armor.

Quote:
Hmm, doesn't he get shot in the forehead and pass out in one movie? That might be Knockdown but it requires a Shock penalty and that means injury... Poetic license sucks:)
Yeah, but that was a magic^H^H^H^H^Hadamantium bullet, so it got to do whatever it wanted.
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Old 09-08-2010, 06:17 PM   #49
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

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Originally Posted by jacobmuller View Post
Or did you mean 2 points of Blunt Trauma? Like being shot in the back of the head for 20 points damage while wearing a monocrys suit.
GURPS granularity - it hurts but not enough to count on this scale.
Heh, realistically if you take 20 points of damage to the head your brains are going to be going splish-splash, regardless of the armor, unless you're in a mecha suit, or something with at the very least a HANS device level of protection.
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Old 09-08-2010, 10:01 PM   #50
hal
 
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

OK, riddle me this...

Unless not in a situation where rigid armor becomes "flexible armor", we wouldn't even be having this discussion right?

If the Damage inflicted normally can NOT progress past the original armor - how are we applying the Skull's inherent DR against damage that normally doesn't even hit the head/skull in the first place?

It is only AFTER the armor is treated as flexible, that the harder armor becomes required to handle what essentially got past the first layer.

GURPS 3e VEHICLE rules even went so far as to treat each layer of armor separately, requiring the effects of the second layer to come into play only after the first layer had been breached.

Put another way? A person takes a given amount of punishment (ie damage) from a swung club. Club impacts upon the helmet, and can't get past the armor DR value, net result: No damage to the head.

Swung club does (and by club, I'm not saying wooden!) 1 point of damage more than the helmet can handle, then, and only then, does the DR of the skull come into play. Club does 2 points more damage than the helmet can handle, the skull is hard pressed to stop the full damage.

Swung club does three points of damage more than the Helment can resist, then three points get through, and the skull, as the last line of defense, stops 2 more damage. Net result - one point gets through.

At no point in time, does the Skull's DR get added to the helmet's DR as one combined value.

Now, lets look at the Blunt Trauma model.

Body is falling downwards - only the HEAD is taking damage, so presumably, the person is falling head first in what amounts to a dive. Real life, this would result in a compacted spine, broken neck (possibly) etc, but for now, lets just look at the GURPS rules shall we?

Which surface hits the ground first - the head, or the helmet? The helmet right? So why are we talking about layered armor where we get to pick and choose which armor takes the brunt of the damage first????

Helmet stops 16 Damage by virtue of its DR 16. Inflicted Damage due to the fall is 15 points. First layer stops ALL of the damage but for the special case of all armor except innate DR is treated as flexible armor. Now, for every 5 points of damage, 1 gets through as Blunt Trauma. In effect? Helm stops the damage, but HEAD still continues forward and impacts against inside of helmet (otherwise, helmet crumples until it hits skull surface, take your pick).

NOW we still have to account for the incoming 3 points of blunt trauma. At this point, the second layer of armor comes into effect - that of the skull's bone structure. Stops 2, leaving 1 point through the skull of the incoming blunt trauma.

And this damage, per the rules is the actual injury damage? No wounding modifiers? Nothing special despite the fact that in real life, such a helmet might keep the skull from caving in, but not result in a snapped neck?

Ohhhhh Kay <shrug>.

In any event - here is another "concept" to wrestle with.

GURPS as written, has this odd concept where incoming damage can be stopped by Damage resistance right?

When you have layered armor - where incoming "damage" must first undergo passing armor before it becomes "injury", what happens when you have damage get stopped entirely by armor, becomes blunt trauma, then has to go through a second layer of armor? Injury can't be stopped by Armor's DR, as injury is what happens AFTER it gets past DR. But with Layers, what gets past the first layer, and must get past the second layer, is by definition, NOT injury, but still damage.

So, I submit that from my perspective, the current rules are not as clear cut nor as "clean" a set of rules as some might have us believe. And while certain individuals have earned the right to be considered to be authorities on the rules (No offense meant to anyone by the by), there will still be times where the rules as written are poorly constructed, or poorly interpreted.

Now, I'm not about to get into a ******* contest either way. I remain unconvinced by RPK's explanation, and will smile remembering that as GM, it is up to me to interpret the rules as best as I can, but also discarding those rules I consider to be poorly writ, or poorly executed. House rules be the name of the game as it were ;)
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