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Old 09-07-2010, 04:19 PM   #31
Ze'Manel Cunha
 
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langy View Post
One of the problems is that non-flexible armor doesn't protect completely against blunt trauma in real life, so it shouldn't provide complete protection in GURPS.
No kidding, imagine getting hit by 2 points of blunt damage to the skull and then saying that your bone skull "armor" soaked it all, yeah right, let's just ignore the brain going splish-splash inside your head.

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Originally Posted by Langy View Post
A further problem is that innate, non-flexible DR also wouldn't provide any greater blunt-trauma protection against falls than non-innate non-flexible DR in real life. That's because the 'blunt trauma' damage from a fall is caused by your squishy insides being all jostled around, and a hard plate of armor would not protect against that at all, since it'd be the same as just falling flat on hard pavement.
QFT, the whole blunt trauma mechanic is way too weak and cartoony in comparison to the normal GURPS standard.
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Old 09-07-2010, 06:28 PM   #32
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Isn't CCoI supposed to have some new blunt trauma rules?
"CCoI is supposed to have some new rules for X" is true for all X. It will do everything.
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Old 09-07-2010, 07:10 PM   #33
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

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Originally Posted by Ts_ View Post
As asked earlier in this thread:
What if your only rigid DR is ablative innate DR, below some heavy chainshirt? With the "rigid first" rule, it prevents the blunt trauma damage, but doesn't really stop the damage because it's the last line of defense and players would cry if you reduce their ablative DR "because of the blunt trauma rules".

Also mentioned earlier:
Rigid DR 1 tin can over or under the DR 5 chainshirt ... Should those really behave the same way when hit with a sling shot (5 cr) that can be stopped by the chainshirt causing 1 blunt trauma in principle? The "rigid first" rule says that there is 0.8 blunt trauma (which of course, due to the scale, is rounded to 0 injury). The layered approach makes that exactly 0.

I dunno. I can take the easy "rigid first" solutions and it won't come up with ablative DR in any of my games most likely, but it bothers me. If in the end, flexible is too cheap, then one could just fix that ... -10% would still seem appropriate.

And I don't buy into the "bouncing within your rigid shell" idea. It describes concussions quite well. But then one should also take blunt trauma, if one has DR 5 on the skull and none of it is flexible, which is simply not the case in GURPS.

Ts
Again, if you buy DR as an Advantage, it is not and should not be flexible unless you buy it with the Flexible limitation. You should get what you pay for, no more and no less.

The same does not apply to armor bought with money, for which house rules up to and including 'all helmet DR is treated as flexible due to the possibility of rattling your skull despite there being no penetration' may be appropriate.
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Old 09-07-2010, 09:56 PM   #34
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

Ablative DR is problematic here. Of course, "ablative DR" is essentially a Feature-heavy version of HP, so it might be appropriate to bend the rules a bit and have the blunt trauma injury actually just subtract from the ablative DR. Fluff-wise, the blunt force chips away at the ablative layer.

Rigid semi-ablative is more problematic, although simply applying it first might not be too awful - after all, unless you're dealing with armor multipliers, you aren't losing more than 10% of your semi-ablative DR in any given hit.

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Originally Posted by Grouchy Chris View Post
"CCoI is supposed to have some new rules for X" is true for all X. It will do everything.
I hear it will also allow you make a completely immovable stone, and one of the companions will contain instructions for actually moving it...
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Old 09-08-2010, 01:42 PM   #35
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
No kidding, imagine getting hit by 2 points of blunt damage to the skull and then saying that your bone skull "armor" soaked it all, yeah right, let's just ignore the brain going splish-splash inside your head.
But that's how RAW works. Better still, if you have an armoured skull, like Wolverine, taking a bullet to the head causes no injury.
Or did you mean 2 points of Blunt Trauma? Like being shot in the back of the head for 20 points damage while wearing a monocrys suit.
GURPS granularity - it hurts but not enough to count on this scale.
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Old 09-08-2010, 02:09 PM   #36
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

And this is unresolved.
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Originally Posted by jacobmuller View Post
Bit confused by the idea of applying innate DR before worn DR. Should rigid DR always be counted before flexible? Or is that simply a way of figuring this singular conundrum?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. P Kitty View Post
Look at it this way. You have to resolve it all at once, so you don't have "DR 16 and DR 2" -- you have "DR 18, 16 of which happens to be flexible." So when you fall on your skull and take 15 points of damage, 2 damage is stopped by your innate DR and 13 from your flexible DR. Thus, you'd take (13/5) = 2 points of injury to the skull.
I'd rather DR18 rigid, 16 of which is treated as flexible for Falls, resulting in Blunt Trauma Injury 3 points.
Then either:
your innate DR2 stops 2 points of the Blunt Trauma Injury;
or
it doesn't. B378: "Damage Resistance (DR) rates the degree of protection [snip] against damage." "Subtract DR from basic damage." B379: "injury due to blunt trauma. This is actual injury, not basic damage."

As innate DR2 will, in game terms, completely prevent 2 points damage from any source (sword, bullet, club, acid, fire) I'd prefer to use the former. Injury 1HP, and some non-game relevant bruising.
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Last edited by jacobmuller; 07-09-2011 at 08:40 AM. Reason: clarity?
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Old 09-08-2010, 02:20 PM   #37
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacobmuller View Post
And this is unresolved.



I'd rather DR18 rigid, 16 of which is treated as flexible for Falls, resulting in Blunt Trauma Injury 3 points.
Then either:
your innate DR2 stops 2 points of the Blunt Trauma Injury;
or
it doesn't. B378: "Damage Resistance (DR) rates the degree of protection [snip] against damage." "Subtract DR from basic damage." B379: "injury due
to blunt trauma. This is actual injury, not basic damage."

As innate DR2 will, in game terms, completely prevent 2 points damage from any source (sword, bullet, club, acid, fire) I'd prefer to use the former. Injury 1HP, and some non-game relevant bruising.
No, apply the DR 2 that's not flexible in effect first, otherwise you're treating all 18 DR as though it were flexible, when some of it is not. With a 15 HP basic damage hit, that will at least reduce blunt trauma to 2 rather than 3. Think about it... if 10 levels rather than 2 of your DR were innate and therefore not treated as flexible, would you still let a 15 pt attack do 3 points of blunt trauma?
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Old 09-08-2010, 02:25 PM   #38
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

I'm treating the first 16 as Flexible and would treat the remaining 2 as rigid.

Would I let a 15pt attack do 3 points of BT?
Yes and No
either:
innate DR stops Blunt Trauma Injury;
or
it doesn't. B378 because "Damage Resistance (DR) rates the degree of protection [snip] against damage." "Subtract DR from basic damage." B379: "injury due to blunt trauma [snip] is actual injury, not basic damage."

A character wearing leather and TL5 Chainmail (DR9/5*) is clubbed for 5 damage; 1 point of Blunt Trauma if it's his body or limbs. Would his Skull stop it?
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Last edited by jacobmuller; 09-08-2010 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 09-08-2010, 02:38 PM   #39
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacobmuller View Post
Yes and No
either:
innate DR stops Blunt Trauma Injury;
or
it doesn't. B378 because "Damage Resistance (DR) rates the degree of protection [snip] against damage." "Subtract DR from basic damage." B379: "injury due to blunt trauma [snip] is actual injury, not basic damage."
Innate DR doesn't stop Blunt Trauma Injury. What it does do, however, is stop damage in a rigid manner, which can indirectly reduce/stop Blunt Trauma. RPK was hardly ambiguous about this - you apply the DR that functions as rigid first, then apply the DR that functions as flexible. The only issues that pop up are those when you have non-standard Innate DR (like Rigid Ablative Force Fields and the like).
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Old 09-08-2010, 02:40 PM   #40
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacobmuller View Post
Yes and No
either:
innate DR stops Blunt Trauma Injury;
or
it doesn't. B378 because "Damage Resistance (DR) rates the degree of protection [snip] against damage." "Subtract DR from basic damage." B379: "injury due to blunt trauma [snip] is actual injury, not basic damage."

A character wearing leather and TL5 Chainmail (DR9/5*) is clubbed for 5 damage; 1 point of Blunt Trauma if it's his body or limbs. Would his Skull stop it?
It doesn't. DR cannot stop injury. There is no ambiguity about this.

By definition, injury is after DR. DR stops damage, which is why its name is "Damage Resistance" (not "injury Resistance").

By the time you're applying blunt trauma injury, DR is no longer part of the equation.
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