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Old 08-27-2010, 01:11 AM   #41
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 12: Ninja

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
My perspective as the line editor differs. The long and rather detailed list of ninja abilities is intended for both beginner ninja and master ninja. This supplement includes a basic template of the DF 1: Adventurers kind, lenses of the DF 3: The Next Level type, and abilities similar to those in DF 11: Power-Ups.
Yes and no. The ninja abilities are nice, and similar in depth of many delver's powers (such as the Martial Artist's Chi Mastery, or the Holy Knight's Holy Might). What it lacks is a specific power-up section, giving them access to things like Ninja Talent 6, raising their maximum DX to 25, and Extra Attack* at least. At least in my games, I follow DF3's recommendation that Power Ups are only available to those that have a full template, not just those that gain access to it's abilities via a mixing professions lens. Also, there's at least one instance of something that requires Ninja Talent 5+: the Jonin No Ninja-To doesn't get it's maximum benefits without Ninja Talent 5+. All talents are limited to 4 levels, and only some Power-Ups raise the cap to 6 levels.

* All nearly martial based templates include one extra level of Extra Attack in their powerup, that is to say: Barbarian, Holy Knight, Knight, Swashbuckler and Scout. The Martial Artist gains Altered Time Rate instead, and already gets Extra Attack 2 available via Chi Mastery. The only one that is missing the option for an extra attack is the Unholy Warrior, and now the Ninja. The only glaring omission is the Unholy Knight though. It might even be errata-worthy in fact, but it also might be intentional - though with DF3, since they get no specific Power Up, I would think that they get the Holy Warrior, but with the adjustments from p. 27, thus giving them access to it.
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Old 08-27-2010, 04:38 AM   #42
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 12: Ninja

Kudos on DF:Ninja. Lots of fun stuff there! I agree with everyone else that it really succeeds in making Ninja separate from other classes. I bought it even though I didn't think I would have use for ninja characters at this time, and I don't regret that a bit!

I have three comments about things that are not totally clear to me. None of this is really a problem.

* Prerequisites with plusses

I find what seems to be to be unnecessary "+"'s confusing when prerequisites for the Ninja Abilities are listed. Lethal Weapon for instance has "Ninja Talent 3+" (with plus) and "Ninja Tools 2" (without plus) among its prerequisites. Of course having "Ninja Tools 3" is no hinder, so what does the "+" really signify? Wouldn't just "Ninja Talent 3" mean the same?

The reason this becomes confusing (to me) is because then I guess that "Mind Shield 1+" being the prerequisite for "Ninja Talent 1+" could just mean that "NT 1" is enough for any level of MS (which I would prefer to have seen as "MS 1" being the prerequisite). Otherwise I would assume this was shorthand for MS 1 having NT 1, MS 2 having NT 2, MS 3 having NT 3, etc.

This also applies to the prerequisites for Ninja Tools 3+. If just "Ninja Talent 2" is meant, that would have been clearer to me.

* Ninja Tools with climbing spikes

Climbing spikes are given as an example to use with Ninja Tools, but actually they weigh so much that only a really strong Ninja would be able to do this. No problem, the Climbing Spikes in DF1 are for hands and feet, so it's really four objects. Then two of these four ought to be able to get, and with two Ninja Tools you should be able to get the whole set, right?

* Own no more than can be carried

I see some tension between this vow and that ninja with lots of Ninja Tools will want to buy lots of stuff that they don't carry around. When Ninja Tools is used it turns out what particular items was actually carried, but the rest is still in a cache somewhere? It's probably best not to think much about that, but how should the vow be enforced mechanically? If a ninja has paid for lots of stuff to use as Ninja Tools, is it enough if he could carry them all with extra-heavy encumbrance, even though he never would dream of actually going around with that much encrumbrance?

In that case it shouldn't pose much of a problem, since he still could have bought about 100 items to be used as Ninja Tools. (100 items at maximum Tool weight is approximately his extra-heavy limit. He will have some other equipment as well, but then many Tools will weigh less.)
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Old 08-27-2010, 05:01 AM   #43
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 12: Ninja

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Isn't there something in the Necromancer Template that does this? If not one could just use Affliction (Covenant of Rest).
Or just a Shtick (as in DF 12, p. 10, under Ninja-Holy Warrior).

Just read the pdf, and it's really very nice. I can't wait to drop a ninja or two in our spacepunk game, where the weird ninja abilities will likely be based on cybertek and low-level psionics, as well as on pure cinematic badassery. That will teach 'em to take powerful Enemies! Mwuarhar!
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Old 08-27-2010, 05:20 AM   #44
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 12: Ninja

Really awesome DF-Volume!!!
I'm looking forward to the first encounter with a Ninja-Barbarian-Dwarf... *g*
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Old 08-27-2010, 05:29 AM   #45
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 12: Ninja

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Originally Posted by pst View Post
* Prerequisites with plusses

I find what seems to be to be unnecessary "+"'s confusing when prerequisites for the Ninja Abilities are listed. Lethal Weapon for instance has "Ninja Talent 3+" (with plus) and "Ninja Tools 2" (without plus) among its prerequisites. Of course having "Ninja Tools 3" is no hinder, so what does the "+" really signify? Wouldn't just "Ninja Talent 3" mean the same?

The reason this becomes confusing (to me) is because then I guess that "Mind Shield 1+" being the prerequisite for "Ninja Talent 1+" could just mean that "NT 1" is enough for any level of MS (which I would prefer to have seen as "MS 1" being the prerequisite). Otherwise I would assume this was shorthand for MS 1 having NT 1, MS 2 having NT 2, MS 3 having NT 3, etc.

This also applies to the prerequisites for Ninja Tools 3+. If just "Ninja Talent 2" is meant, that would have been clearer to me.
The "+" is there to say that that is the minimum required for whatever it is you want. In other words, you can read that "+" as saying "or more." Ninja Talent 1 (or more, you're not going to lose it if you have higher levels) is required for any amount of Mind Shield. I think the "+" was added because the table has capped and uncapped abilities, seeing as only the ones that can be raised to any level (or at least more than three) have the "+" sign.

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* Own no more than can be carried

I see some tension between this vow and that ninja with lots of Ninja Tools will want to buy lots of stuff that they don't carry around. When Ninja Tools is used it turns out what particular items was actually carried, but the rest is still in a cache somewhere? It's probably best not to think much about that, but how should the vow be enforced mechanically? If a ninja has paid for lots of stuff to use as Ninja Tools, is it enough if he could carry them all with extra-heavy encumbrance, even though he never would dream of actually going around with that much encrumbrance?

In that case it shouldn't pose much of a problem, since he still could have bought about 100 items to be used as Ninja Tools. (100 items at maximum Tool weight is approximately his extra-heavy limit. He will have some other equipment as well, but then many Tools will weigh less.)
I think you're overthinking this one. Especially since DF isn't about exacting book keeping, and because is specifically states that "Stuff you own but didn't specify you were carrying" can teleport to you, I'd say that the "can be carried" only rules out certain things . . . like would it make any sense to say a ninja couldn't own a horse? He can't carry it . . .

Also, did anyone get the impression of Ninjas "cooking the books" as it were, so that they always spent their money/budget? I know I did, "Well, I could give my clan that last $100 I have . . . or I could get two Storm Shuriken!!!"
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Old 08-27-2010, 06:08 AM   #46
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 12: Ninja

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Originally Posted by tg_ambro View Post
I think you're overthinking this one. Especially since DF isn't about exacting book keeping, and because is specifically states that "Stuff you own but didn't specify you were carrying" can teleport to you, I'd say that the "can be carried" only rules out certain things . . . like would it make any sense to say a ninja couldn't own a horse? He can't carry it . . .

Also, did anyone get the impression of Ninjas "cooking the books" as it were, so that they always spent their money/budget? I know I did, "Well, I could give my clan that last $100 I have . . . or I could get two Storm Shuriken!!!"
The overthinking was intentional, up till I stopped myself with "It's probably best not to think much about that", but then still, the rule must be enforced somehow, so I looked for a mechanical interpretation where you don't have to think about what it actually means.
In particular after extreme cases of extra equipment like you're talking about.

(I think I would allow a horse fwiw. Sure, it can't be carried, but that's not needed anyway, and it might be something needed for missions. But I wouldn't let the horse carry more than its own gear in the vow calculation. (Even though B161 puts "own no more than your horse can carry" at -10!))
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Old 08-27-2010, 06:27 AM   #47
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 12: Ninja

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Will there now be multi-class lenses for the Demonologist, Elementalist, Innkeeper, Necromancer and Shaman?
For those of those who were mine ... the question didn't arise when I was writing the book, which is probably just as well, because I think the task of creating cross-classing lenses for them would be fiddly at best, most likely lead to something tragically half-assed, and might just be boringly impossible.

Being a summoner-type character is a full-time job and commitment, and tends to suck up points accordingly. Trying to get into one of those classes with less than the full point investment is likely a bad idea. Plus there's a whole load of tricky stuff with flavours of Magery and pseudo-Magery and so on.

(Cross-classing out of a summoner class into a non-magical class might be feasible; just pinch one of the lenses for cross-classing out of being a cleric or wizard, and fudge a little as necessary.)
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Old 08-27-2010, 06:28 AM   #48
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 12: Ninja

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Very likely this, which is funnier when you know he was in, say, this or this, and if you know what this means (especially its English abbreviation).
That's it! Thank you for speaking for me, doctor^^
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Old 08-27-2010, 09:47 AM   #49
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 12: Ninja

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What it lacks is a specific power-up section, giving them access to things like Ninja Talent 6, raising their maximum DX to 25, and Extra Attack* at least.
Ah, I see what you're saying now. Not new special abilities of the DF 11 kind – which are already here – but limit waivers of the DF 3 variety. Hm, how about:
Ninja can buy unlimited Ninja Talent [10/level] – there's always a more skillful master hiding somewhere. This makes it possible to improve certain Ninja Training abilities above the usual limits: one level of Enhanced Parry, Killing Strike, or Silence per two full levels of Ninja Talent, or one level of Enhanced Dodge or Super Jump per three full levels. Additional options: Extraordinary Luck [30] and improving Weapon Master (Ninja Weapons) [35] to full Weapon Master [45].
I'd like to avoid giving them raised DX, Basic Speed, and Basic Move caps so that the thief, swashbuckler, and scout, respectively, keep their unique traits. Like the martial artist, the ninja is supposed to accomplish his impressive feats through training (high weapon skill, Weapon Master, Super Jump, etc.), not gross physical stats. As for Extra Attack . . .

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Originally Posted by Kuroshima View Post

All nearly martial based templates include one extra level of Extra Attack in their powerup
We deliberately avoid this for sneaky types, though, so that there's an incentive to stay sneaky, even at high levels. That's why the thief doesn't get this power-up, for instance.

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Originally Posted by Kuroshima View Post

The only one that is missing the option for an extra attack is the Unholy Warrior, and now the Ninja.
This is entirely deliberate. The ninja is supposed to sneak up and deliver a one shot, one kill assassination vs. one foe at a time. Note how several of his best abilities are one-shot. We decided against Extra Attack because that would turn him into a front-line warrior, which wasn't what we wanted at all. Crucially, it's one of those things that distinguishes the ninja from, say, the martial artist (or the thief from the swashbuckler).

The unholy warrior is likewise supposed to be cunning – and a bit cowardly, relying more on stealth and occult powers than being a good warrior. He gets the rather powerful Dread Touch and Terror abilities of Unholy Might, and his Exorcism can bind demons to service (DF 3); moreover, he gets the ability to shapeshift into a demon, and Striking ST 1-10 (Only on surprise attack, -60%) [2/level] like a thief (DF 11). All this is instead of frontal combat abilities like Enhanced Block, Enhanced Parry, and Extra Attack. Played right, the unholy warrior won't ever need that sort of stuff, because his foes won't be alive to attack him . . . and if they are, his demon buddies can provide many extra attacks.

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Originally Posted by pst View Post

Prerequisites with plusses
That's purely a case of inconsistent notation. Sorry!

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Climbing Spikes in DF1 are for hands and feet, so it's really four objects. Then two of these four ought to be able to get, and with two Ninja Tools you should be able to get the whole set, right?
Sure . . . price and weight are set up so that you can divide nicely by four. Mind you, we assumed you'd buy half a set (2 lbs.), which is within reach of even a ST 10 ninja, and summon those with Ninja Tools when you need them. Your neko-de (on p. 13) will provide the hand spikes!

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Own no more than can be carried
Not really a big deal because . . . well, it's cheesy, but: Your wealthy, high-level ninja's ninja suit does have Weapon Holder or Superior Weapon Holder (p. 17), right? And you won't bother owning many caltrops, nageteppo, shuriken, etc., because you can use Ninja Tools to summon them as needed – effectively for free, since they're expendable (thrown away) and within the $50 limit – and they'll never count against what you can carry.

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Originally Posted by Phil Masters View Post

Plus there's a whole load of tricky stuff with flavours of Magery and pseudo-Magery and so on.
That's the big one. Really, we wanted these guys to be super-dedicated. Having to define their crossovers . . . well, no, not worth the trouble.
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Old 08-27-2010, 10:42 AM   #50
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 12: Ninja

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The unholy warrior is likewise supposed to be cunning – and a bit cowardly, relying more on stealth and occult powers than being a good warrior. He gets the rather powerful Dread Touch and Terror abilities of Unholy Might, and his Exorcism can bind demons to service (DF 3); moreover, he gets the ability to shapeshift into a demon, and Striking ST 1-10 (Only on surprise attack, -60%) [2/level] like a thief (DF 11). All this is instead of frontal combat abilities like Enhanced Block, Enhanced Parry, and Extra Attack. Played right, the unholy warrior won't ever need that sort of stuff, because his foes won't be alive to attack him . . . and if they are, his demon buddies can provide many extra attacks.
Or his demon buddies can be front line "tank" fighters, or all else fails, a swarm of undead or minor demons is a nice, ablative, meat shield between you and the problem. And appropriate for a callous Unholy Warrior.

Incidentally, I love the shapeshift: demon idea. I've had knight-of-hell type NPCs that were "two phase bossfights" that upgraded into demons when you killed the knight; it's nice to see the ability for PCs (or, really, NPCs).
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