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Old 08-26-2010, 06:27 PM   #21
Kromm
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 12: Ninja

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Dog View Post

Specifically I'd LOVE to see some compare and contrast with the Thief, Martial Artist and Swashbuckler.
Similarities:
  • Like the thief, the ninja is nimble and stealthy, and strikes from surprise.
  • Like the martial artist, the ninja uses special physical abilities that constitute a power.
  • Like the swashbuckler, the ninja privileges skill and agility over strength and armor.
Differences:
  • Unlike the thief, the ninja is all about killing, not foiling locks/traps and stealing things.
  • Unlike the martial artist, the ninja's power focuses heavily on weapons and gizmos.
  • Unlike the swashbuckler, the ninja is all about sneaky cunning, not honorable bravado.
If I were to list three things that define the ninja, I'd say "stealth, special gear, and weapon-based powers."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroshima View Post

Just a minor nitpick, there are NO powerups
My perspective as the line editor differs. The long and rather detailed list of ninja abilities is intended for both beginner ninja and master ninja. This supplement includes a basic template of the DF 1: Adventurers kind, lenses of the DF 3: The Next Level type, and abilities similar to those in DF 11: Power-Ups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by b-dog View Post

If you make such cool, detailed templates like DF Ninja then nobody will want to play a generic Thief or Knight.
Tosh. There's really no more on ninja in DF 12 than there is on knights, on thieves, or on any other profession in DF 1, DF 3, and DF 11 put together. It's just that this book came after all those, so all the bits that would've been strewn across three items are collected in one place. The ninja doesn't usurp anyone's niche . . . Prior to DF 12, there was no assassin "class" in the series – a clear oversight! Now there is.

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Originally Posted by b-dog View Post

Now maybe if there were Samuri and Viking templates as a subset of Knights then people would be more interested IMO.
You seem to misunderstand. Barbarian, holy warrior, knight, martial artist, scout, swashbuckler, and unholy warrior are all just subsets of "fighter." Demonologist, elementalist, necromancer, scholar, and wizard are all just subsets of "magician." Cleric, druid, evil cleric, and shaman are all just subsets of "priest." And bard, innkeeper, and thief are all just subsets of "rogue." You could quibble about the assignments, but the point is, these are already subtypes of bigger archetypes. The ninja and assassin are two more members of the rogue set. They aren't more specialized than any of the others, just different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Dog View Post

Like "The Assassin (since that seems to be the name of the template) gets X, but the Thief still gets Y?"
Aside from what I've already said, the assassin and ninja are similar in that they're both stealthy killers, but different in that the ninja relies on an uncanny power and slightly impossible gadgets, while the assassin is more about major force, poison, and straightforward thuggery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post

I'm fairly sure that "Assassin" is the "nonja" template, that was included if you wanted to use stuff from the .pdf, but not have Japanese-esque characters in your game.
I'd assert that the fantasy ninja is no longer Japanese in any meaningful sense . . . he has graduated to the realm of the generic, much as the fantasy bard and druid don't have much to do with Celts any more. The main difference is that the ninja uses obscure weapons and abilities that require him to take complicated vows and act inscrutable, while the assassin is just a cold killer with all-too-easy-to-grasp motives like "money" and "hate." The ninja is set up so that he could be honorable; the assassin is meant to be a unequivocally "evil," like the evil cleric and unholy warrior.
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Old 08-26-2010, 06:27 PM   #22
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 12: Ninja

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Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
Dude, it isn't the ninja's fault that it's "super cool" -- blame years of media exposure for that. :)


That sounds like a good Pyramid article just waiting to happen. You wouldn't even need to bother with lenses -- the knight is already flexible enough to turn into a samurai or viking as-is.
Well more than just templates, I really like to have things fleshed out with cool things from history. A mongol or turkish warrior would be cool to me as would a priest of Ra or Orsirus. That way I can more easily insert the GURPS historical books into my DF world.

Anyway, this book really gives the feel on the ninja to me and it doesn't feel like a generic assassin/martial artist. I like this type of template book a lot.

Last edited by b-dog; 08-26-2010 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 08-26-2010, 06:32 PM   #23
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 12: Ninja

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Originally Posted by b-dog View Post

Well more than just templates, I really like to have things fleshed out with cool things from history.
That's a job for historical worldbooks (which are entirely fine for e23, if somebody wants to write them), not for DF. DF is specifically meant to be generic. And as I said in my longer reply, ninja are generic. They're no more "Japanese" than druids are "Celtic" in 2010-era fantasy gaming. I mean, all ideas have to come from somewhere . . . even the fantasy holy warrior or paladin started life as a Crusader or one of the Crusader's Muslim rivals, or maybe Galahad. But the serial numbers came off a long time ago.
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Old 08-26-2010, 06:52 PM   #24
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 12: Ninja

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
That's a job for historical worldbooks (which are entirely fine for e23, if somebody wants to write them), not for DF. DF is specifically meant to be generic. And as I said in my longer reply, ninja are generic. They're no more "Japanese" than druids are "Celtic" in 2010-era fantasy gaming. I mean, all ideas have to come from somewhere . . . even the fantasy holy warrior or paladin started life as a Crusader or one of the Crusader's Muslim rivals, or maybe Galahad. But the serial numbers came off a long time ago.
I think if there were some books like Dungeon Fantasy: Egypt with some touches for templates to fit the world view, monsters and cool items then I would love to buy something like this. They have a different cosmology so it would be cool as to how to incorporate it into DF for things like the religion and even monsterts like the ghosts.

Anyway, I hope Peter writes more martial arts template stuff like the samuri and one for the martial artist.
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Old 08-26-2010, 07:09 PM   #25
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 12: Ninja

Will there now be multi-class lenses for the Demonologist, Elementalist, Innkeeper, Necromancer and Shaman? I thought I read in an earlier thread that there had been whinging that those lenses just took up space and were thus kept out of Summoners.
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Last edited by Rasputin; 08-26-2010 at 07:16 PM. Reason: Oh, I saw Kromm's response on power-ups.
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Old 08-26-2010, 07:14 PM   #26
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 12: Ninja

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Originally Posted by b-dog View Post

Anyway, I hope Peter writes more martial arts template stuff like the samuri and one for the martial artist.
Would the Samurai not just be a Knight from DF 1?

Like Master Kromm said, DF is generic. So you could take most if not all of the templates from DF 1 and make them Oriental, European, Forgotten Realms or what ever Fantasy genre you fancy at the moment.

Mayb DF xx Cultures could be something on the horizon - DF XX Culture - Oriental or Goblinkins or Elves and so on.
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Old 08-26-2010, 07:19 PM   #27
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 12: Ninja

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
I'm fairly sure that "Assassin" is the "nonja" template, that was included if you wanted to use stuff from the .pdf, but not have Japanese-esque characters in your game.
You are aware that historical assassins were Arabian, right?
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Old 08-26-2010, 07:28 PM   #28
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 12: Ninja

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Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
You are aware that historical assassins were Arabian, right?
Ok. Let me try again. "I think the Assassin is intended to be a "nonja" sneaky killing guy that lacks the clearly identifiable characteristics of the ninja." Better? By Japanese-esque I didn't mean "Japanese" I meant "80s Ninja-craze origin".
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Old 08-26-2010, 07:31 PM   #29
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 12: Ninja

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Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
You are aware that historical assassins were Arabian, right?
Historical assassins were everywhere.

The etymology of the word may be Arabian in origin, but the concept is not.
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Old 08-26-2010, 07:32 PM   #30
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 12: Ninja

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Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
An omission, of sorts: what would be good power-ups for a Ninja (or an Assassin, even more of a dungeon fantasy staple)?
It might be interesting to make GURPS translations of the Assassin PRC abilities. Since the standard d20 one isn't all that exotic, I'll post some of the ones from the Pathfinder SRD.

Sneak Attack has already been taken care of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Death Attack (Ex)
If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin's choice). Studying the victim is a standard action. The death attack fails if the target detects the assassin or recognizes the assassin as an enemy (although the attack might still be a sneak attack if the target is denied his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class or is flanked). If the victim of such a death attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin's class level + the assassin's Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim's saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.
Poison Use and Save Vs Poison are all too easy.

Uncanny Dodge is pretty easy too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hidden Weapons (Ex)
- At 4th level, an assassin becomes a master at hiding weapons on his body. He adds his assassin level to all Sleight of Hand skill checks made to prevent others from noticing them.
Technically this can just be an awesome Holdout skill or Gizmo, but a type of Snatcher (My Gear Only) might also be pretty fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True Death
Starting at 4th level, anyone slain by an assassin's death attack becomes more difficult to bring back from the dead. Spellcasters attempting to bring a creature back from the dead using raise dead or similar magic must make a caster level check with a DC equal to 15 + the assassin's level or the spell fails and the material component is wasted. Casting remove curse the round before attempting to bring the creature back from the dead negates this chance. The DC of the remove curse is 10 + the assassin's level.
I have no idea how to do that one off the top of my head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet Death (Ex)
At 6th level, whenever an assassin kills a creature using his death attack during a surprise round, he can also make a Stealth check, opposed by Perception checks of those in the vicinity to prevent them from identifying him as the assailant. If successful, those nearby might not even notice that the target is dead for a few moments, allowing the assassin to avoid detection.
Would this just be a technique based on Stealth?

Hide in Plain Sight has already been taken care of too.

Swift Death is just making the Death Attack very fast. It can't be hard to do. Limited Enhanced Time Sense or something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel of Death (Su)
At 10th level, the assassin becomes a master of death. Once per day, when the assassin makes a successful death attack, he can cause the target's body to crumble to dust. This prevents raise dead and resurrection (although true resurrection works as normal). The assassin must declare the use of this ability before the attack is made. If the attack misses or the target successfully saves against the death attack, this ability is wasted with no effect.
Hmmmm... a disintegrate effect. At the moment I'm at a loss on this one too, but I bet that I am just forgetting something obvious.


Quote:
Also, will there now be multi-class lenses for the Demonologist, Elementalist, Innkeeper, Necromancer and Shaman?
You can probably use the ones from Cleric, Druid and Wizard without any problems, depending on the attitude your Summoner takes. I bet I've been scooped on this idea, though.
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