Damage Resistance with Force Field enhancement: What gets through?

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by dds_ks

Sorry, this example wouldn't work in "my world", so I can't follow you to the point you want to make - for this reason:

I as a GM would expect that the description fits the effect.

• If it is chinkless steel-hard skin, then it should have the Tough Skin limitation..
• If the DR is not meant to have this limitation, you need a different description for it, let's say a kind of lobster armor.

Wrong. The Tough Skin limitation includes Flexible and allows penetration by things like darts, hypodermics, stingers to deliver toxins. Since this does not describe the way Luke Cage's or Superman's skin works, they would not take the limitation. Flexible, conceivably, for Luke Cage, but not Tough Skin, and neither for Superman.

We're not talking about the specifics of your world, we're talking about GURPS, which is supposed to be Generic and Universal enough to cover all kinds of worlds.

Originally Posted by dds_ks

From my point of view, this is crucial.
If it just were steel-hard skin without any chinks, he couldn't move his joints at all, unless he has a limitation or enhancement explaining how this works (at least Flexible). If, on the other hand, there is no such limitation because it consists of rigid plates, then there will be chinks at the joints. And, just for completeness: Fur wouldn't work at levels as high as DR 20.

First off, no, because no such inherent limitation is defined within the description of the Damage Resistance Advantage. You don't have difficulty moving regardless of your DR, nor does this necessarily imply vulnerable joints for physical realism. This doesn't just include the four color supers genre, either; consider stone and iron golems in fantasty worlds. Even if they are jointed to allow movement (and usually they aren't portrayed as such), they're stone or metal all the way through, so would have the appropriate DR no matter where you went, nor could insects in swarms somehow get underneath the DR to sting (even if they didn't have IMH), because there's no 'underneath' that doesn't have the DR of stone or metal.

Secondly, a limitation such as Flexible generally doesn't add utility to an advantage, nor is there a 'Chinkless' enhancement offered, so it seems that the default for DR bought with CP is not to have such spots, except for the eyes as already noted in the advantage description.

Originally Posted by dds_ks

You correctly mentioned that the rule for attacking chinks in the armor only halves the DR. If you hit chinks with a "normal" weapon designed for SM 0-users, I think it's reasonable not to ignore DR completely as I suppose that parts of the weapon could still hit parts of the armor, reducing the power of the hit to the unprotected area. The rulebook says 1/2 DR with respect to normal combat attacks, which means (simplified) one heavy strike per second with - in most combat situations - an ... item ... between SM -2 (sword) to SM -6 (short knife).
On the other hand, if you're a SM -14 creature with a sting of somewhere around SM -20, I guess that it could be argued by at least some people (including me) that the DR is avoided completely - after you took a longer time for... evaluation or targeting or searching, or whichever word you prefer.

Only if there's actually a chink that allows access to DR 0 flesh, which for the super examples would only be the case for the eyes and perhaps other orifices (nose, mouth) if open, and would not be the case anywhere for a golem. Actually, there's another template flub - since golems would have eyes also made of metal or stone or whatever, their DR should probably be bought with Force Field, unless they take Injury Tolerance: No Eyes.

[dds_ks]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Wrong. The Tough Skin limitation includes Flexible and allows penetration by things like darts, hypodermics, stingers to deliver toxins. Since this does not describe the way Luke Cage's or Superman's skin works, they would not take the limitation. Flexible, conceivably, for Luke Cage, but not Tough Skin, and neither for Superman.

We're not talking about the specifics of your world, we're talking about GURPS, which is supposed to be Generic and Universal enough to cover all kinds of worlds.

So you don't think that the GURPS rule assume that description and effect have to fit? You would think that a player just spending CP and writing down an advantage "just because" would be right? So the "Unusual Background"-advantage would be superfluous.
In your example, you argue with well-known heroes and effects on them, right. And you translate their advantages to GURPS rules. And I say that I think this translation isn't correct. So whatever could be concluded from the imagination of the hero-as-known, it wouldn't explain anything in the rules due to the translation error.
If I have to answer your question anyway, then my answer is clear: As the example lacks inner logic, I have to admit that I can't offer a logical answer about the conclusions of your example.

You use Golems as example for not having weak points? So you wouldn't think that their joints are more vulnerable than other body parts? Well, about the eyes of a Golem, you're right. BTW: Elementals, Golems, Zombies, Skull Spirits: can you explain why some templates include "Dead Broke" and others don't?

However, I have problems with your argumentation. On one hand you write that with steel-hard skin there is no movement problem because this is not RAW. On the other hand you say that the Targetting Chinks-rule doesn't apply although it's RAW and no exeption stated under the DR section. And your argument seems to be, as far as I see it, that the Targetting Chinks-rule wasn't repeated once again in the DR section?

And maybe you should stop talking about insects getting "underneath" skin. The point I made is that those found some weak points to sting/bite. That could be "getting underneath" as one of several examples, but (please excuse) "stinging" to this single word "underneath" doesn't bring us any farther.

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Only if there's actually a chink that allows access to DR 0 flesh, which for the super examples would only be the case for the eyes and perhaps other orifices (nose, mouth) if open, and would not be the case anywhere for a golem.

At least for Superman, there is a famous movie scene where a bullet hits his eye without causing any harm, so I think we can drop the mentioning of exeptions of "normal" DR for Supers. This could be solved by giving the DR a not yet mentioned enhancement "including eyes" or - as you already said - the "no eyes"-injury tolerance.
But with regard to insects, there is a possibility to get immunity, it's just not in the DR section... and now we are back to Biotech: RAW say you can ignore even irritation damage caused by insects with the Sealed advantage. And as I see it, it would be completely logical to include Sealed into the Superman description. And if you think that Superman should be vulnerable to other effects that Sealed would protect against, just use an accessibility limitation.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by dds_ks

And maybe you should stop talking about insects getting "underneath" skin. The point I made is that those found some weak points to sting/bite. That could be "getting underneath" as one of several examples, but (please excuse) "stinging" to this single word "underneath" doesn't bring us any farther.


At least for Superman, there is a famous movie scene where a bullet hits his eye without causing any harm, so I think we can drop the mentioning of exeptions of "normal" DR for Supers. This could be solved by giving the DR a not yet mentioned enhancement "including eyes" or - as you already said - the "no eyes"-injury tolerance.
But with regard to insects, there is a possibility to get immunity, it's just not in the DR section... and now we are back to Biotech: RAW say you can ignore even irritation damage caused by insects with the Sealed advantage. And as I see it, it would be completely logical to include Sealed into the Superman description. And if you think that Superman should be vulnerable to other effects that Sealed would protect against, just use an accessibility limitation.

Okay, forget about underneath, although that's the rationale given in the swarm rules themselves and the reason the beekeeper suit is effective. Maybe say at best that insects can find weak spots for half DR, but no further reduction than that. After all, what weak spots are there on a stone or metal golem, even if jointed, that an insect can effectively bite the golem? Think about it, and you'll realize the answer is none. Same goes for wizards casting Body of Metal or Body of Stone

And Superman, unlike Luke Cage, clearly has Force Field, which does cover the eyes in full. Colossus, by contrast, since it's defined that his eyes are armored but weaker than his skin, gets either Nicitating Membrane, or, since that would be rather costly to bounce even lower-caliber bullets, a limited form of Injury Tolerance: No Eyes (Accessibility: Only if 1/5 body DR not exceeded).

[dds_ks]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

And Superman, unlike Luke Cage, clearly has Force Field, which does cover the eyes in full.

Just a general question: does Superman really have DR? This would suggest that a bullet/missile/bomb could harm him if only it caused enough damage.
At the moment, I don't have my rulebooks at hand, but there was an advantage for 150 CP saying something like:

"You can shake off any damage but one kind of damage; you only have to roll for survival if this kind of damage brings you below -1 * HP or if you are already there and receive any even small damage of this kind; but you're dead without regard to the kind of damage if one single blow does enough damage to reduce you from full HP to -10 * HP."

Well, this sounds like "unharmed, if there's no Kryptonite" (or how do you spell this in English? My dictionary doesn't include this word...), it sounds like "specially written for Superman" - with the exception of this "one blow"-rule.
I thinkt that this fits better than even 500 points of DR. And it avoids the limitation "DR useless against/in the presence of Kryptonite".

On the other hand, one strange thing about Superman is, that his suit never gets damaged... this could suggest a Force Field, but it could be explained by a Perk for Supers, too. And he has at least one Perk for Supers: just remove the glasses, and nobody recognises Clark any more.

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by dds_ks

So you don't think that the GURPS rule assume that description and effect have to fit?

Please point me to where in the books this is stated as a system assumption? (Not setting assumption. A system assumption.)

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by dds_ks

Just a general question: does Superman really have DR? This would suggest that a bullet/missile/bomb could harm him if only it caused enough damage.
At the moment, I don't have my rulebooks at hand, but there was an advantage for 150 CP saying something like:

"You can shake off any damage but one kind of damage; you only have to roll for survival if this kind of damage brings you below -1 * HP or if you are already there and receive any even small damage of this kind; but you're dead without regard to the kind of damage if one single blow does enough damage to reduce you from full HP to -10 * HP."

Well, this sounds like "unharmed, if there's no Kryptonite" (or how do you spell this in English? My dictionary doesn't include this word...), it sounds like "specially written for Superman" - with the exception of this "one blow"-rule.
I thinkt that this fits better than even 500 points of DR. And it avoids the limitation "DR useless against/in the presence of Kryptonite".

On the other hand, one strange thing about Superman is, that his suit never gets damaged... this could suggest a Force Field, but it could be explained by a Perk for Supers, too. And he has at least one Perk for Supers: just remove the glasses, and nobody recognises Clark any more.

The bullets actually bounce; if he didn't have DR, IT:DR, high HP and so on, he could stand in front of someone trying to protect them, and have them get shot anyway via overpenetration. Since this doesn't happen, I can only conclude that he has some level of DR.

Also note that he doesn't start moving around more slowly after taking enough damage to put a normal person down below 0 HP, nor does he go unconscious a lot from bullets; SD protects against physical stun and knockout rolls, but the description does not seem to say that you no longer make rolls for unconsciousness below 0 HP. Therefore, Superman must have some minimal DR, otherwise he can eventually be knocked out by a crowd of people hitting him with their fists, or rather quickly from a machinegun on full auto. At the very least, even if I'm wrong about unconsciousness, he'd be hampered in his combat abilities by these attacks.

The one blow rule is also an issue, because usually Kryptonite does damage by proximity, takes a long time even if he's been blown up a lot lately, and even if he's stabbed or shot with it, tends not to cause immediate death - as demonstrated by the character still being around. Also, was Doomsday laced with Kryptonite? If not, we have no means of emulating him killing Superman, or even just putting him in the long-lasting coma that it really was.

His DR needn't be in the hundreds, though, I suppose. Either Supernatural Durability or Unkillable in combination with the No Obvious Damage Perk from GURPS Supers, plus some Regeneration so it doesn't take him forever to recover from -10xHP or worse, will nicely cover the effect of him being 'knocked out' but not killed even by nuclear weapons.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

The Tough Skin limitation includes Flexible and allows penetration by things like darts, hypodermics, stingers to deliver toxins. Since this does not describe the way Luke Cage's or Superman's skin works, they would not take the limitation. Flexible, conceivably, for Luke Cage, but not Tough Skin, and neither for Superman.

We're not talking about the specifics of your world, we're talking about GURPS, which is supposed to be Generic and Universal enough to cover all kinds of worlds.

I think the issue is that we're taking realism to a level beyond what the rules can reasonably cover without risking playability.


In a more realistic setting the base default DR modifiers would all have to be modulated and layered to fit, Fur, Nails, Horn, and other armors formed of keratin would have to be broken down into one part made of the protective somewhat ablative DR and the other part by the connected sebaceous glands or other roots which form and regenerate the DR.

With fur and hair there's going to be pores which breaks through the skin and makes the underlying organism not fully sealed to chemical/biological infiltration/infection.


I'm not sure we could really come up with a set of layered limitations for DR which would be both realistic and playable, though I'm willing to kick around the idea with you guys, probably in another thread.

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Secondly, a limitation such as Flexible generally doesn't add utility to an advantage, nor is there a 'Chinkless' enhancement offered, so it seems that the default for DR bought with CP is not to have such spots, except for the eyes as already noted in the advantage description.

No reason why we shouldn't be able to come up with a Chinked limitation though...

And keep in mind, if using the Optional Rule for Small Size and Combat, Powers P.76, any creature below SM -13, 1/2"( 1.25 cm), can ignore all natural DR on a successful grapple roll to enter an orifice, or enter through the pores at SM -44.

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Only if there's actually a chink that allows access to DR 0 flesh, which for the super examples would only be the case for the eyes and perhaps other orifices (nose, mouth) if open, and would not be the case anywhere for a golem. Actually, there's another template flub - since golems would have eyes also made of metal or stone or whatever, their DR should probably be bought with Force Field, unless they take Injury Tolerance: No Eyes.

GURPS has issues with the pricing of armoring eyes, Nictitating Membrane costs a massive 1 DR per level, while Injury Tolerance: No Eyes only costs 5 points, and I'm not even sure how valid an "Always On" limitation for NM would go over, but how someone builds a golem's eyes is going to be setting specific...

All of those costs would have to be addressed, along with the general ablativeness of armor, especially biological/keratin armors, if we were to create more realistic limitations and enhancements.

[vitruvian]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
That rule is very specifically for man-made armor worn outside the body. You have to get into it, so it has holes or flanges by definition. It's effectively DR with a limitation, were you to buy it as a gadget. Natural DR – with or without Force Field – always protects against swarm damage.

Good enough for me. Note that most if not all natural DR enjoyed by real world animals probably needs Tough Skin in order to explain the ability of insect swarms to bite or sting them, individual ticks to lodge in them, etc. - and not take 2-5 seconds to do it, either!

Now I'm minded to PM him about the No Signature for DR thing over in that other thread....

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Good enough for me. Note that most if not all natural DR enjoyed by real world animals probably needs Tough Skin in order to explain the ability of insect swarms to bite or sting them, individual ticks to lodge in them, etc. - and not take 2-5 seconds to do it, either!

If they're small enough, and ticks are, they just need that successful grapple roll to ignore natural DR in any vulnerable spot, like the ears.

Besides, if the DR is coming from Fur or Feathers, then digging down through the fur to get to the skin underneath is clearly grappling for chinks.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

If they're small enough, and ticks are, they just need that successful grapple roll to ignore natural DR in any vulnerable spot, like the ears.

Besides, if the DR is coming from Fur or Feathers, then digging down through the fur to get to the skin underneath is clearly grappling for chinks.

Where is the outside of the ear defined as a weak spot in DR? I'd probably allow the inside of the ear canal, ala the eyes.

Would you let them do so through a steel golem's DR, though?