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Old 08-03-2010, 01:38 AM   #1
prospero
 
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Default Improving basic attributes cheaply: ST!, DX!, IQ!, HT!

Is it consistent with the RAW to improve basic attributes with character points earned during play while keeping constant the secondary attributes which are based on them? The rules for improving attributes on B290 don't seem to address this possibility directly.

As at least one thread has mentioned, it is very cheap to buy up HT (+10 pts.) if you simultaneously decrease Fatigue (-3 pts.) and/or Basic Speed (-5 pts.). IQ comes in for a nice discount, too, if you hold Will and Per constant. Are these options available only at character creation, or can players use them throughout a character's development?

Last edited by prospero; 08-03-2010 at 01:42 AM. Reason: add link to thread
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Old 08-03-2010, 01:46 AM   #2
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Default Re: Improving basic attributes cheaply: ST!, DX!, IQ!, HT!

No it is NOT consistent... BUT you can if you convince your GM that you acquired the Disadvantageous that go with those FULL stat levels... as DX! etc does not exist it is short hand for a 'meta trait'
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Old 08-03-2010, 07:03 AM   #3
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Default Re: Improving basic attributes cheaply: ST!, DX!, IQ!, HT!

IMNSHO, the folks on this forum that use Stats! apparently don't have disadvantage limits in their campaigns.

Example: Someone wants IQ! 14, and thinks that it's 40 points, equal to what his buddy's paying for IQ 12. A good deal, right? But let's take a look at the two builds in a situation where the GM's decided on a 100 point game with -50 in disadvantages.

IQ 12 is 40 points, but that also gives you Will 12 and Per 12 at no extra cost. Will and Per come in handy in play. This guy still has -50 to spend on disadvantages.

IQ! 14 is IQ 14 [80], Will 10 [-20], Per 10 [-20]. This guy's shooting himself in the foot several ways. For one, he's not as strong-willed or as perceptive as the IQ 12 guy, despite being nominally smarter. Furthermore, he's already used -40 of his -50 disadvantage limit, leaving him only -10 to play with. Plus, he'll have to dump more points into skills such as Observation and Intimidation (based on Per and Will, respectively) to get them as high as the IQ 12 guy can get them.

This is why GURPS doesn't use Stat! notation in the books. It's not a meta-trait, nor is it helping players in the long run. Stat! is just an invention of people on this forum, and not endorsed by Steve Jackson Games in general, nor (as far as I know) by Kromm, the GURPS line editor.
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Last edited by Phantasm; 03-18-2011 at 07:36 AM.
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Old 08-03-2010, 07:14 AM   #4
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Default Re: Improving basic attributes cheaply: ST!, DX!, IQ!, HT!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbrock1031 View Post
This is why GURPS doesn't use Stat! notation in the books. It's not a meta-trait, nor is it helping players in the long run. Stat! is just an invention of people on this forum, and not endorsed by Steve Jackson Games in general, nor (as far as I know) by Kromm, the GURPS line editor.
Well, if you can justify it at character creation, I don't see any problem with it. For example, if you want to play the obsessed genius who is focussed on his work, I could see a character with high IQ, but reduced Per. I think this is exactly in line with what Gurps character creation is about.

For the same reason I would allow Stat! increases during play with earned CP: As long as the player can justify the reason behind it.
Of course, "Because it's cheaper" is never a good reason from a roleplay perspective.
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Old 08-03-2010, 07:17 AM   #5
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Default Re: Improving basic attributes cheaply: ST!, DX!, IQ!, HT!

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Originally Posted by Jamaraq View Post
Well, if you can justify it at character creation, I don't see any problem with it. For example, if you want to play the obsessed genius who is focussed on his work, I could see a character with high IQ, but reduced Per. I think this is exactly in line with what Gurps character creation is about.
Pointing out the drawbacks of IQ! is not the same thing as saying that you can't do it.
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Old 08-03-2010, 07:20 AM   #6
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Default Re: Improving basic attributes cheaply: ST!, DX!, IQ!, HT!

I use +- the inverse formula. For example one player want to improve his IQ in game. In game I ask him to first improve his will and per and only after that he can put more 10 pointss to buy the "real" IQ. I use the same thing for ST and for DX (fisrt put 5 points in Basic Speed).
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Old 08-03-2010, 07:40 AM   #7
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Default Re: Improving basic attributes cheaply: ST!, DX!, IQ!, HT!

Sure you can lower your perception if you want to paint a target on your PC saying "I can't spot snipers please shoot me in the head.".
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Old 08-03-2010, 08:19 AM   #8
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Default Re: Improving basic attributes cheaply: ST!, DX!, IQ!, HT!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamaraq View Post
For the same reason I would allow Stat! increases during play with earned CP: As long as the player can justify the reason behind it.
Of course, "Because it's cheaper" is never a good reason from a roleplay perspective.
I regularly allow my Players to adjust their PCs with Stat! increases during play as part of character growth, it's the extra speed which is hard to get.

After all, if they've increased 3 mental skills by +4 points then they might as well get the benefit of the +1 IQ! they've earned by putting those points into developing their mental skills. Same thing for those 4 DX skills at +4 points.

In other words, no justification needed in play for increasing IQ! and DX!, just increasing skills.
On the other hand, trying to increase Will or Per without the skill justification won't fly with me, and trying to increase your Basic Speed better come with a real good explanation too.

I don't get much call for ST! or HT!, the Players usually want more in the way of HP and FP, not less.
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Old 08-03-2010, 08:27 AM   #9
Jamaraq
 
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Default Re: Improving basic attributes cheaply: ST!, DX!, IQ!, HT!

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Originally Posted by swampthing View Post
Pointing out the drawbacks of IQ! is not the same thing as saying that you can't do it.
Was I was saying was, that we allow Stats! (as long as it's justifiable from a character perspective) and still have disadvantage limits. I should perhaps have quoted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbrock1031
IMNSHO, the folks on this forum that use Stats! apparently don't have disadvantage limits in their campaigns.
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Old 08-03-2010, 08:31 AM   #10
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Default Re: Improving basic attributes cheaply: ST!, DX!, IQ!, HT!

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Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
After all, if they've increased 3 mental skills by +4 points then they might as well get the benefit of the +1 IQ! they've earned by putting those points into developing their mental skills. Same thing for those 4 DX skills at +4 points.

In other words, no justification needed in play for increasing IQ! and DX!, just increasing skills.
Mmm, this is a good point that I haven't given much thought. I will think of it the next time someone want to raise IQ! and DX!.
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