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Old 07-05-2010, 12:43 PM   #1
Thomas
 
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Default Consequences for helper if main player escapes before die roll?

Suppose someone faces a tough monster, asks for and gets a helper, but then escapes from the combat before the die roll (cf. Teleportation Potion thread), and the helper does not have a card to do the same.

I assume that once the helper has agreed to help, they are moved into the room (if not there already) and remain there in any case. Would the helper be left in the position of continuing the combat? (And if so, could they ask for help?)

Or rather is it the case that this combat would subside as soon as the original main player has left? In that case, no combat would take place until it is the helper's turn. But then, if the monster is still there, the helper would still need to contend with the monster (possibly with no one else around to help).

I suspect it is the latter, but wanted to check. (Even then, it is still a potentially nasty predicament for the helper.)
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Old 07-05-2010, 11:42 PM   #2
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Default Re: Consequences for helper if main player escapes before die roll?

I would tend to think that the combat goes on, without any delay.

The helper must cope with the monster, without even gaining a level if he wins - but reaping treasure for sure - and with no help.

Of course, the helper could also escape combat with a special card, like teleportation.

I would not wait until the helper's turn, as the Monster may have gone away at that time . and there would also be a difficult managing of the rules if another player enters the room meanwhile (what ought the helper do ?)...
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Old 07-06-2010, 12:58 PM   #3
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Default Re: Consequences for helper if main player escapes before die roll?

Bear with me while I try to figure out how best to answer this. It can kind of go either way, depending on what cards were played. I also know that, at least in Munchkin, there are cards which allow the main combatant to leave and the helper still has to finish out the combat. I want to look through the Quest card database tonight and see what cards move people around, even during combat, and how they're worded to see if we have any clues about how the generic case should be handled.

My first instinct, however, is that if the main combatant bails using some card to instantly get out of the combat, the combat is over and the helper is stuck with taking a hit per Monster and having to Run Away unless the card used to get the main combatant away says something else.
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Old 07-06-2010, 06:49 PM   #4
Thomas
 
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Default Re: Consequences for helper if main player escapes before die roll?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robinreeve View Post
Of course, the helper could also escape combat with a special card, like teleportation.
Yes, if the helper could also use a card to magically escape before the combat die roll, then they would both get out and neither of them would take any hit. As Andrew officially confirmed in the recent Teleportation Potion thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard View Post
Until the dice are rolled, combat is not resolved. If you have a way to escape the fight before then, you get away clean.
So not even a hit for a loss. I have no question about that combination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robinreeve View Post
I would not wait until the helper's turn, as the Monster may have gone away at that time . and there would also be a difficult managing of the rules if another player enters the room meanwhile (what ought the helper do ?)...
If the main player leaves before the combat die roll, and IF this meant that the current battle immediately comes to an end without being resolved, then there are clear rules about why there would not be a new fight with the helper until it is the helper's turn. See page 8 in the rules:

Quote:
"You may only start fights during your turn. If a monster moves into your room and it is not your turn, nothing happens yet! ... It's only if the monster is still in your room when the turn begins that a combat will take place."
However, that may not be the situation in this case. See my next post.
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Old 07-06-2010, 07:15 PM   #5
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Default Re: Consequences for helper if main player escapes before die roll?

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Originally Posted by MunchkinMan View Post
...My first instinct, however, is that if the main combatant bails using some card to instantly get out of the combat, the combat is over and the helper is stuck with taking a hit per Monster and having to Run Away unless the card used to get the main combatant away says something else.
If the helper is truly at risk of "taking a hit per Monster and having to Run Away", shouldn't they at least have the opportunity to resolve the battle? Perhaps they could actually win on their own. It seems reasonable that they should at least get the chance of trying -- if indeed they are at risk of the negative consequences. This would seem to be doubly true if it can be shown that the combat is not considered to be "over".

(Also, even if it were determined that they couldn't technically ask for a "helper" of their own (something that is murky), it still might be that they could agree to reward someone who intervenes in the combat in favor of the helper (e.g. with one-shots). So there could be some possibility of help in that way.)

About the central question, I did just discover something in the rules tonight (p. 8):

Quote:
"Where'd Those Monsters Go?
...
If all the monsters, or all the munchkins, are removed from the room, the combat is over. All 'usable once only' cards are returned are returned to their owners. All monster enhancer cards stay with the monster they were played on."
To first clarify one point, when it says "all the munchkins" I would suppose that means all the munchkins actually participating in the combat, correct? [Suppose munchkin A is in a room, and monster M moves in when it is not A's turn. No combat (yet). Then munchkin B enters on B's turn and starts a combat. B might not ask for help, or might get munchkin C from the next room as a helper, but in either of those cases, munchkin A is just a bystander, and not involved in the fight, correct?]

It would seem that the clear implication of that paragraph from p. 8 is that if not all of the munchkins have been removed from the room (and not all the monsters), then the combat is not over.

Since the combat is not over, then I would suppose that the helper needs to try to do as best they can, possibly with the benefit of any helpful intervention that comes their way. If they lose, they lose as usual, but they should at least be able to try I would think.

And if they win, I would suppose that they get the levels and treasure that normally apply. They earned it.

Doesn't that make sense?

Last edited by Thomas; 07-06-2010 at 07:18 PM. Reason: adjust italics
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Old 07-06-2010, 08:17 PM   #6
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Default Re: Consequences for helper if main player escapes before die roll?

I've taken a look at the database. Since Teleportation Potion says that "you Run Away immediately," the only thing that makes sense to me is that if the main combatant uses it during combat, that combat is now over, the helper must find a way to escape without getting hurt or take a hit per Monster and try to Run Away.

If Andrew can play poke-a-developer and get better insight on this, I welcome it. However, I don't want further suggestions on how everyone thinks it should work because that will just confuse the issue.
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:23 PM   #7
Thomas
 
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Default Re: Consequences for helper if main player escapes before die roll?

Thanks, Erik, for considering this and for looking into it. If there are further thoughts (from you or Andrew), I'd be interested to know too about the clarification questions I raised in my previous post concerning "all the munchkins" in the relevant paragraph from page 8 of the rules. (Or, if it is more appropriate, I could make a new thread just for that.)*

Thanks again.

*p.s. While Andrew's clarifying insights or relayed developer input would still be welcome regarding the main question of the thread, the side question about clarifying the meaning of "all the munchkins" has been addressed by Andrew in another thread here., i.e. it means both the main munchkin and helper, if any.

Last edited by Thomas; 07-15-2010 at 09:20 AM. Reason: added p.s.
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:50 AM   #8
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Default Re: Consequences for helper if main player escapes before die roll?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
there are clear rules about why there would not be a new fight with the helper until it is the helper's turn.
I was not speaking of the turn when the attacker teleports, but of the turn of another player who is not the helper (in a 3-4 player case).

But as Eric clarified the whole question, all is fine.
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Old 07-15-2010, 09:31 AM   #9
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Default Re: Consequences for helper if main player escapes before die roll?

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Originally Posted by MunchkinMan View Post
If Andrew can play poke-a-developer and get better insight on this, I welcome it.
I've been hoping that Andrew would accept Erik's invitation and offer some additional helpful observations and/or developer insight. As matters stand, it is still not clear to me how to treat this situation in a way that is consistent with the rules and with other aspects of the game.

I hope that it is OK if I illustrate what is still unclear by looking at an unresolved aspect.

What should happen to any "use once" cards that have been played?

Consider various options.

A. If this had been a case where "the combat is over" prematurely according to the rules on p. 8, there would be no resolution to a win or a loss and all the "use once" cards (except monster enhancement) would be given back to their owners to use later. However, if the helper remains, that does not fulfill the requirements as they are written, since not "all the munchkins" have been removed.

B. If one changed those rules from saying

Quote:
"If all the monsters, or all the munchkins, are removed from the room, the combat is over."
to saying
Quote:
"If all the monsters are removed from the room, or the main munchkin is removed, the combat is over."
then the rule would indeed apply and all would be completely clear. Then the "use once" cards would be returned to their owners and the helper would not suffer a loss. But that requires a change to the rules. As stated currently, having only one of the two munchkins Run Away before the combat roll would not by itself mean "the combat is over." (For an example, see here.)

C. Within standard rules, if at least one monster and one munchkin remains, it would seem that the "use once" cards would not be returned because the combat would proceed to resolution as a win or loss, with a combat die roll 2.6 seconds after no more cards have been played. So the cards would have expended their effect on a combat that completed.

But this would mean that the remaining helper would have at least the opportunity and (literally) a fighting chance to win rather than lose. In this case, as well as the others above, a loss is not assumed. Depending on the cards played, it even could still happen that the last monster is removed from the room, leading back to case A.

D. Some other option? But if so, I am unable to connect any other option with anything I have been able to find in the rules. I could not find any discussion of what happens to "use once" cards in any case where the combat is not normally resolved, but the helper would still be assumed to have lost.

So do you see why the resolution to this situation is still unclear, at least to me?

Thanks in advance for your clarifications.
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Old 07-15-2010, 10:43 AM   #10
Andrew Hackard
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Default Re: Consequences for helper if main player escapes before die roll?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MunchkinMan View Post
If Andrew can play poke-a-developer and get better insight on this, I welcome it. However, I don't want further suggestions on how everyone thinks it should work because that will just confuse the issue.
Andrew and the developer both have other things that have to be done, so I'm just going to say that Erik is correct and let it stand there.
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