Annihilation and Looting the Room

TheOddOne · 05-23-2010, 12:29 AM

If someone opens a door, and it is a monster, and they begin to fight it and I drop Annihilation on the monster, what happens next (after the monster poofs out of existence)? Can the munchkin loot the room?

The rules (under Loot The Room) have these possibilities:

1- If the monster is killed, take the number of treasures indicated and gain an appropriate number of levels. This will not happen, as the monster is not killed.
2- If the munchkin meets a monster and runs away, they do not get to loot the room. This condition is not met, as he met a monster, but did not run.
3- If the munchkin did not meet a monster, or met a friendly monster, the munchkin can search the room. This condition is not met either, as the munchkin met a monster, and it was not friendly.

If the converse of (2) is taken (my friend's argument), then since the munchkin met a monster and did not run away, he may loot the room, drawing an extra face-down door.

If the converse of (3) is taken (my argument), then if the munchkin met a non-friendly monster, then the munchkin cannot loot the room, not drawing an extra face-down door.

Which is the case? Or am I missing something simple?

mawile · 05-23-2010, 01:10 AM

3, because annihilation makes the monster out of the game, as it was never there... at least, that's what i think...

AMOE · 05-23-2010, 05:58 AM

Let's see...

Annihilation makes it so that the monster was never there, so combat never happenned. Normally, you wouldn't be able to get a face down door due to battle, but since there was no battle, you should be allowed to have one.

In this case, I'd treat the monster as if it had been an uneffective curse or trap card. The only difference is that this monster card is taken out of the game, not put in the discards.

That's how I'd rule it if I were playing.

TheOddOne · 05-23-2010, 06:26 AM

The card itself is actually giving me some trouble as well.

It reads: Play this card at any time to permanently remove any one card from the game. It does not go to the discard pile.. put it back in the box and forget it. The target card must be in play when you use Annihilation on it. If an opponent had just played it, it is canceled and has no effect.

I read it as:

If a card (like a monster, class, or item) is in play, then it is removed from play, and the game (not re-grabable by another card's powers). I argue that since the card was in play, the combat starts, the monster poofs, and the previous argument about where the combat's result falls, between case 2 and case 3.

Another possibility would be that if you read the opponent having "just played" the door card into play, it is cancelled like a curse, resulting in an "ineffective monster", that means they can draw a card.

Further thoughts?

(Please make sure to state your argument, and the end result (whether or not the munchkin can loot the room, or perhaps draw another monster (if combat did not happen, in the case of an O R'lyeh, which says it "cancels" the card, and a replacement must be drawn).

AMOE · 05-23-2010, 07:53 AM

In fact, if a monster pops up during the kicking down the door part, it becomes in play and is considerred as "just played", since combat starts immediately, unless the monster ignores that munchkin.

You then may use Annihilation to cancel the "just played" monster card as if it was never played, meaning there was never a battle, but a door WAS kicked down. Looting the room should follow.

However, if another card, say, an enhancer or one-shot, was played after the door was kicked down, then, according to the card's text, combat HAS happenned, but the monster poof'd out of battle (and even, out of dimension) which should mean that the player who found that monster may NOT get any levels or treasures from that monster, NOR draw a face-down door card. Tough luck.

Again, that's my call, but Andrew and Erik are the ones to make the official judgement (and only one that counts, really XD)

TheOddOne · 05-23-2010, 10:16 AM

Actually, that makes a lot of sense. So... in order to deny them a door card, I need to drop a monster enhancer, or another card. *evil finger tap* eeexceellleeent.

Thank you for the help!

Andrew Hackard · 05-23-2010, 01:27 PM

Please note the key phrase "an opponent" in the wording of Annihilation. If you kick open the door and find a monster, then Annihilate it, the monster was still there (briefly). You cannot Look For Trouble or Loot The Room.

LxTrix · 02-15-2012, 04:41 PM

Someone in my group tried to make the argument because it says "never existed" they would get to bust the door down again. Can i get a ruling on this?

Should also note this post contradicts this one...
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?p=1223108

Mister Ed · 02-15-2012, 04:56 PM

I think Andrew's ruling covers that. The monster isn't "cancelled" it is just destroyed, and taken out of the game. The player still kicked down the door and encountered it, so they don't get to kick another door, they don't get to loot the room, and they don't get to look for trouble. In fact, I would assume that, since the monster isn't cancelled, but just removed, the combat isn't even over right away, and either the player who kicked the door down, or another player, could still wander in a monster if they had the appropriate cards.

EDIT: Didn't see the link you added. That sure seems to contradict what Andrew says here. I'm more comfortable (not that that means a lot, I know) with his ruling here, though, since it makes more sense to me, as the monster is not a card that an opponent "just played", so it doesn't seem like it should be cancelled.

Unless turning over a door card counts as "playing" it? In which case the monster WOULD be "cancelled" if another player Annihilates it, but not if the original player did.

MunchkinMan · 02-15-2012, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LxTrix

Should also note this post contradicts this one...
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?p=1223108

No, it doesn't. In that post, a different player used Annihilation, which would mean it actually cancelled the appearance of the Monster, whereas in this case, the player who kicked down the door (effectively "playing" the Monster) used Annihilation, which as the card is worded, can only cancel a card played by another player, and therefore couldn't cancel that Monster.

05-23-2010, 12:29 AM	#1
TheOddOne Join Date: May 2010	Annihilation and Looting the Room If someone opens a door, and it is a monster, and they begin to fight it and I drop Annihilation on the monster, what happens next (after the monster poofs out of existence)? Can the munchkin loot the room? The rules (under Loot The Room) have these possibilities: 1- If the monster is killed, take the number of treasures indicated and gain an appropriate number of levels. This will not happen, as the monster is not killed. 2- If the munchkin meets a monster and runs away, they do not get to loot the room. This condition is not met, as he met a monster, but did not run. 3- If the munchkin did not meet a monster, or met a friendly monster, the munchkin can search the room. This condition is not met either, as the munchkin met a monster, and it was not friendly. If the converse of (2) is taken (my friend's argument), then since the munchkin met a monster and did not run away, he may loot the room, drawing an extra face-down door. If the converse of (3) is taken (my argument), then if the munchkin met a non-friendly monster, then the munchkin cannot loot the room, not drawing an extra face-down door. Which is the case? Or am I missing something simple?

05-23-2010, 01:10 AM	#2
mawile Join Date: Aug 2008	Re: Annihilation and Looting the Room 3, because annihilation makes the monster out of the game, as it was never there... at least, that's what i think...

05-23-2010, 05:58 AM	#3
AMOE Join Date: Mar 2010	Re: Annihilation and Looting the Room Let's see... Annihilation makes it so that the monster was never there, so combat never happenned. Normally, you wouldn't be able to get a face down door due to battle, but since there was no battle, you should be allowed to have one. In this case, I'd treat the monster as if it had been an uneffective curse or trap card. The only difference is that this monster card is taken out of the game, not put in the discards. That's how I'd rule it if I were playing. __________________ If anyone notices that I am wrong, then by all means, correct me.

05-23-2010, 06:26 AM	#4
TheOddOne Join Date: May 2010	Re: Annihilation and Looting the Room The card itself is actually giving me some trouble as well. It reads: Play this card at any time to permanently remove any one card from the game. It does not go to the discard pile.. put it back in the box and forget it. The target card must be in play when you use Annihilation on it. If an opponent had just played it, it is canceled and has no effect. I read it as: If a card (like a monster, class, or item) is in play, then it is removed from play, and the game (not re-grabable by another card's powers). I argue that since the card was in play, the combat starts, the monster poofs, and the previous argument about where the combat's result falls, between case 2 and case 3. Another possibility would be that if you read the opponent having "just played" the door card into play, it is cancelled like a curse, resulting in an "ineffective monster", that means they can draw a card. Further thoughts? (Please make sure to state your argument, and the end result (whether or not the munchkin can loot the room, or perhaps draw another monster (if combat did not happen, in the case of an O R'lyeh, which says it "cancels" the card, and a replacement must be drawn).

05-23-2010, 07:53 AM	#5
AMOE Join Date: Mar 2010	Re: Annihilation and Looting the Room In fact, if a monster pops up during the kicking down the door part, it becomes in play and is considerred as "just played", since combat starts immediately, unless the monster ignores that munchkin. You then may use Annihilation to cancel the "just played" monster card as if it was never played, meaning there was never a battle, but a door WAS kicked down. Looting the room should follow. However, if another card, say, an enhancer or one-shot, was played after the door was kicked down, then, according to the card's text, combat HAS happenned, but the monster poof'd out of battle (and even, out of dimension) which should mean that the player who found that monster may NOT get any levels or treasures from that monster, NOR draw a face-down door card. Tough luck. Again, that's my call, but Andrew and Erik are the ones to make the official judgement (and only one that counts, really XD) __________________ If anyone notices that I am wrong, then by all means, correct me. Last edited by AMOE; 05-23-2010 at 05:04 PM.

05-23-2010, 10:16 AM	#6
TheOddOne Join Date: May 2010	Re: Annihilation and Looting the Room Actually, that makes a lot of sense. So... in order to deny them a door card, I need to drop a monster enhancer, or another card. evil finger tap eeexceellleeent. Thank you for the help!

05-23-2010, 01:27 PM	#7
Andrew Hackard *Munchkin* Line Editor Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Austin, TX	Re: Annihilation and Looting the Room Please note the key phrase "an opponent" in the wording of Annihilation. If you kick open the door and find a monster, then Annihilate it, the monster was still there (briefly). You cannot Look For Trouble or Loot The Room. __________________ Andrew Hackard, *Munchkin* Line Editor If you have a question that isn't getting answered, we have a thread for that. Let people like what they like. Don't be a gamer hater. #PlayMunchkin on social media: Twitter \|\| Facebook \|\| Instagram \|\| YouTube Follow us on Kickstarter: Steve Jackson Games and Warehouse 23

02-15-2012, 04:41 PM	#8
LxTrix Join Date: Jun 2010	Re: Annihilation and Looting the Room Someone in my group tried to make the argument because it says "never existed" they would get to bust the door down again. Can i get a ruling on this? Should also note this post contradicts this one... http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?p=1223108 Last edited by LxTrix; 02-15-2012 at 04:48 PM.

02-15-2012, 04:56 PM	#9
Mister Ed Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Portland, Oregon	Re: Annihilation and Looting the Room I think Andrew's ruling covers that. The monster isn't "cancelled" it is just destroyed, and taken out of the game. The player still kicked down the door and encountered it, so they don't get to kick another door, they don't get to loot the room, and they don't get to look for trouble. In fact, I would assume that, since the monster isn't cancelled, but just removed, the combat isn't even over right away, and either the player who kicked the door down, or another player, could still wander in a monster if they had the appropriate cards. EDIT: Didn't see the link you added. That sure seems to contradict what Andrew says here. I'm more comfortable (not that that means a lot, I know) with his ruling here, though, since it makes more sense to me, as the monster is not a card that an opponent "just played", so it doesn't seem like it should be cancelled. Unless turning over a door card counts as "playing" it? In which case the monster WOULD be "cancelled" if another player Annihilates it, but not if the original player did. Last edited by Mister Ed; 02-15-2012 at 05:02 PM.