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Old 05-24-2010, 06:37 AM   #21
davidtmoore
 
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Default Re: [MA] What's the virtue of using spears with Staff skill?

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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
You are reading "it's intended use" from an example and dismissing the rest of the text. If the onyl intention with the skill was to allow to use none-fencing weapons with fencing skill then it wouldn't make sense to include several lines about how it would work with other weapons (silly or not).
No, I'm reading its intended use from ten examples: its sum-total four appearances in styles - Escrima, Krabi Krabong and (twice) in Dragon-Man Kung Fu - in every instance applying to using a sword or stick with a fencing skill; its conspicuous absence from Chinese Horse-Cutter Fighting, Chinese Spear-Fighting, Glaive Fighting, Naginatajutsu and Sojutsu, all of which teach Staff skill for fighting with spears or polearms; and the "Switching Skills" passage.

Understand, I agree that the perk as written has much, much broader scope, and is a little ambiguous to boot; and I agree that it's uncertain how it should relate to the use of spears with Staff skill. But the fact that it never accompanies the Staff skill in the many styles where the skill appears, and Kromm's earlier post in this thread, give me some guidance here in interpreting the perk. And it is an interpretation; I several times use phrases like "as near as I can tell" to try and press home that this is my take on a set of rules which appear to be inexhaustive.

However, while pains have been taken to make the perk as broad as possible for players, GMs and future supplement writers to make use of, its application in the book is fairly specific. It really only serves to a) transfer bonuses normally enjoyed by one weapon to another (and all I can think of are the fencing bonuses and the staff bonus) and b) save on buying multiple skills (and the styles in Martial Arts seem to avoid this, preferring just to cover the skill bases). Just buying a skill with WA to use a different weapon is slightly pointless.

And it only ever appears in styles that use fencing skills for non-fencing weapons; the spear and polearm styles neglect it, and p. 104 suggests a reason for this.

But allow me to rephrase if it helps. Here's my basic take on why WA (Spear to Staff) doesn't appear.

1. WA allows you to use Weapon A with the skill for Weapon B as though Weapon A were Weapon B, transferring bonuses across.
2. WA (Staff to Spear) would therefore involve stabbing with a staff, using Spear skill. This is RAW legal - although I still think the weapon charts and style skill lists suggest that these are considered profoundly different techniques - but not particularly valuable, since you can thrust with a staff using Staff skill anyway.
3. WA (Spear to Staff) would involve bashing people upside the head with the side of a spear, or thrusting with the butt of the spear, using the Staff skill. This is RAW legal, but pointless, since you can legally use the Staff skill to do this without the WA perk.

So your question - like mine - is how to transfer the +2 bonus. Your choices (or your GM's choices, if you're a player) are:

1. No problems. All staves and polearms gain the +2 bonus when used with Staff skill. In spite of what it says in the weapon charts, the bonus reflects the skill used more than the weapon's design.

2. It's free with spears, but you need the WA perk to get it with polearms.

3. It's free with spears, but impossible with polearms.

It looks (and unfortunately it was not made explicitly clear in MA) as though 2. is RAW, but I prefer 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post
This is not in the rules. True, Staffs are not listed under Spear, but then, neither are Spear listed under staff. you can't just assume one can be used without also assuming it works the other way around.
I don't wish to turn this into some kind of "you're wrong"/"no, you're wrong" slinging match, because I feel that would be rude and boring to everyone else, but I beg to differ. The absence of spear and polearms from the Staff entry in the Basic Set aside, a range of spears and polearms do appear under Staff in Martial Arts. But even there, staffs still don't appear under Spear. I note that they do appear under Two-Handed Sword.

If you require the rules to state everything that each skill doesn't cover, it could get unweildy very quickly.

Last edited by davidtmoore; 05-24-2010 at 06:42 AM.
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Old 05-24-2010, 06:50 AM   #22
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Default Re: [MA] What's the virtue of using spears with Staff skill?

Thanks for not shouting at me, even if I have been pretty blunt. I don't want a mud-fight either. :)
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Originally Posted by davidtmoore View Post
If you require the rules to state everything that each skill doesn't cover, it could get unweildy very quickly.
I don't, well I am usually the GM and usually just go with what feels right, often in the players favour.

But this is for an arena game where I am NOT the GM and we try to keep things "by the rules" as it's a competition, that's why I need a very precise ruling, as it will have a big impact on several of the fighters style.

"Why not just ask the arena GM to make a ruling" -well I have posted this in there as well, but getting more responses is always better.


I do not agree that polearms can get the +2 staff parry. Guess we just have to disagree.

I do agree that weapon Adaptation has a very limited benefit for staff, spear, polearm combos. It doesn't change any stats anywehere, but allow you to just pump Staff-skill and then also pick up a halbred (for instance) and use that, using halberd-stats, with staff-skill... but then I would say, no +2 parry ;)



I had not noticed the staff listed under 2h-sword in MA. It seems weird to include them there, but then not umder spear. So I see your point.
I still think it makes sense that any long poking-weapon could use spear skill to poke though. Don't you also use spear to attack with a rifle, even if it doesn't have a bayonet?

Last edited by Maz; 05-24-2010 at 06:54 AM.
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Old 05-24-2010, 07:02 AM   #23
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Default Re: [MA] What's the virtue of using spears with Staff skill?

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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
Thanks for not shouting at me, even if I have been pretty blunt. I don't want a mud-fight either. :)
Cool. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post
I don't, well I am usually the GM and usually just go with what feels right, often in the players favour.

But this is for an arena game where I am NOT the GM and we try to keep things "by the rules" as it's a competition, that's why I need a very precise ruling, as it will have a big impact on several of the fighters style.

"Why not just ask the arena GM to make a ruling" -well I have posted this in there as well, but getting more responses is always better.
I appreciate the problem. Is it worth discussing with the other players as well?

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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
I do not agree that polearms can get the +2 staff parry. Guess we just have to disagree.
It never says so - it only says spears do that one time - and the weapon charts at the back of MA says they definitely don't, so you're right, of course; I just think they totally should.

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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
I do agree that weapon Adaptation has a very limited benefit for staff, spear, polearm combos. It doesn't change any stats anywehere, but allow you to just pump Staff-skill and then also pick up a halbred (for instance) and use that, using halberd-stats, with staff-skill... but then I would say, no +2 parry ;)
In which case, there's basically no point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post
I had not noticed the staff listed under 2h-sword in MA. It seems weird to include them there, but then not umder spear. So I see your point.
I still think it makes sense that any long poking-weapon could use spear skill to poke though. Don't you also use spear to attack with a rifle, even if it doesn't have a bayonet?
You wouldn't poke with an unbayoneted rifle anyway. I believe you use Axe/Mace and fight with it like a club, although it may come under Brawling.
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Old 05-24-2010, 08:11 AM   #24
Ze'Manel Cunha
 
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Default Re: [MA] What's the virtue of using spears with Staff skill?

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Originally Posted by davidtmoore View Post
You wouldn't poke with an unbayoneted rifle anyway. I believe you use Axe/Mace and fight with it like a club, although it may come under Brawling.
Sure you do, nothing like poking someone in the chest with the barrel tip of a rifle when you want to make them get back without shooting them...
though you have to be careful not to overdo it, or you can cave their chest in.
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Old 05-24-2010, 08:25 AM   #25
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Default Re: [MA] What's the virtue of using spears with Staff skill?

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Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
Sure you do, nothing like poking someone in the chest with the barrel tip of a rifle when you want to make them get back without shooting them...
In thatr case, roll to hit with Intimidation. :)
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Old 05-24-2010, 08:30 AM   #26
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Default Re: [MA] What's the virtue of using spears with Staff skill?

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Originally Posted by davidtmoore View Post
In thatr case, roll to hit with Intimidation. :)
A cracked/bruised rib or two does wonders for that intimidation roll...
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Old 03-30-2013, 01:40 AM   #27
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Default Re: [MA] What's the virtue of using spears with Staff skill?

Dueling Pole-Arms have Staff Stats but Spears dont? Spears are an easier default at -2 and pole-arm are -4. Am I missing something?
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Old 03-30-2013, 04:41 AM   #28
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Default Re: [MA] What's the virtue of using spears with Staff skill?

It's always funny to when I'm reading a thread and thinking about how I might contribute only to discover that I had already posted a response 3 years ago!

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Originally Posted by nik1979 View Post
Dueling Pole-Arms have Staff Stats but Spears dont? Spears are an easier default at -2 and pole-arm are -4. Am I missing something?
Spears don't need their own stat line. If you're using a Spear with Staff Skill, you're supposed to simply treat it as a staff in every way.
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Old 03-30-2013, 04:49 AM   #29
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Default Re: [MA] What's the virtue of using spears with Staff skill?

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Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
Spears don't need their own stat line. If you're using a Spear with Staff Skill, you're supposed to simply treat it as a staff in every way.
Apparently until the moment you thrust with a sharp end.
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Old 03-30-2013, 04:56 AM   #30
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Default Re: [MA] What's the virtue of using spears with Staff skill?

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Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
It's always funny to when I'm reading a thread and thinking about how I might contribute only to discover that I had already posted a response 3 years ago!


Spears don't need their own stat line. If you're using a Spear with Staff Skill, you're supposed to simply treat it as a staff in every way.
Including the silliness of staff skill allowing you to hit with the blunt end. But suddenly spaz out when trying to use the pointy end.
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