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Old 05-22-2010, 02:59 AM   #21
Icelander
 
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Default Re: Tactical Shooting: A New World: A Private War On Narcoterrorism

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At least one of the first aid kits should have been part of the standard loadouts ...
You mean like the first aid kit Arthur Reyes Malango carried in his bag?

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I also like the notion of coming to Mexico with all the flashy handguns money can buy and than get some good old german submachine guns and asault-rifles for the actual fighting...
Someone once said that the only reason to carry a handgun into a real fight was because you were fighting your way toward a real weapon.
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Old 05-22-2010, 07:38 AM   #22
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Default Re: Tactical Shooting: A New World: A Private War On Narcoterrorism

Have you considered looking at the Tom Clancy novel Clear and Present Danger? It's about an American special operations unit sent into Columbia to stop drug production. It was made into a movie and most of the important operators ended up in Rainbow Six (the counter-terror unit from the same-named novel and video game tie-in).
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Old 05-22-2010, 10:56 AM   #23
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Default Re: Tactical Shooting: A New World: A Private War On Narcoterrorism

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Have you considered looking at the Tom Clancy novel Clear and Present Danger? It's about an American special operations unit sent into Columbia to stop drug production. It was made into a movie and most of the important operators ended up in Rainbow Six (the counter-terror unit from the same-named novel and video game tie-in).
I own it. The movie too, for that matter.
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Old 05-22-2010, 10:57 AM   #24
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Default Re: Tactical Shooting: A New World: A Private War On Narcoterrorism

Based upon my own experience working in a factory that produced metal parts, you may want to revise your work crew extimates for a "small factory". Where I worked for 2 years, employed easily, in excess of 150 people housed within two buildings that between them, occupied the space of about 12 houses. We had forklift operators, machinists, chrome platers, cleaners (various stages of cleaning were involved in the process), as well as buffers and the like. This did not include those who operated drill presses, heat baking machinery, etc. Then you had those involved in handling the chemicals involved - such as the shipping recievers, etc.

Suggest you revise the numbers who work in the smallish factory upwards by a factor of about 4, and then split the numbers employed into shifts. A two shift factory such as ours employed roughly 20% of its first shift numbers for second shift. Example? Of the roughly 9 to 10 people we had working second shift, there would have been some 40 people working first shift. Note that this does not include administration, sales, or even packaging personnel - which perhaps employed another 30 or so individuals in that capacity.

The trick to ask yourself is:

What did the factory manufacture? For example, the one I worked at produced specialty metal parts for cars, construction vehicles, and even for oil well caps (locks) - not to mention special orders from other companies who needed very specific machined parts made of metal. We had Steel bins to house the manufactured parts throughout their various stages of manufacture/cleaning, as well as high voltage machines to produce induction heat capable of tempering metal to a depth of 1 to 2 mm's of the surface. We stored a fair number of liquid natural gas cannisters for use in powering the fork lift trucks used to move the bins. Some of these bins (made of 1/8 to1/4" thick steel, would contain milled parts that would weigh tons. They would be about 2.5' in height, and could be stacked as many as 3 or 4 high. The "legs" were made of steel as well, and would leave enough clearance between the bin and the floor to permit the forks of the forklift to enter - so call it about 4" to 5". Thus, two bins stacked atop of each other might have a height of about 5.5 feet.

Keep in mind, that many of the factories would need high voltage lines to power their machines. In one corner of our factory, we had a honking HUGE tank for liquid Gas (I forget what gas it was, perhaps Nitrogen?). In any event, a factory floor contains a LOT of things that people can use for cover, as well as a lot of dangerous chemicals and the like stored in simple plastic drums, steel drums, etc. Then you have coolant - which can have the consistency of soap in some instances. The coolant I used to mill machine parts was in a concentrate form, which when added to the proper amount of water, was utilized to keep machined parts cool enough while the drill bits cut into them and machined them. One machine - the one I used, was originally used to manufacture and mill pistol barrels during world war II. Which meant, that the machine I was working on at the time, was over 30 years old.

Ah well, enough on that... ;)
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Old 05-24-2010, 07:17 AM   #25
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Default Re: Tactical Shooting: A New World: A Private War On Narcoterrorism

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I'd just like to point out this page, and this section of this page to you.

It seems like you could indeed get ahold of all the different weapons you've listed...but why go for the P90 instead of another M4?
Partially, it was due to a preference on the part of the character in question for SMGs over rifles. Partially, it was due to the GURPS rules for Bulk.

Most practically, though, it was because their contact could supply them with as many MP5s or G3s as they wanted, but was reluctant in the extreme to supply anything that was more likely to be missed. He did have access to an M4A1 rifle and a P90 that he kept to allow foreign visitors to try for amusement.*

*Their contact wasn't a SWAT officer. He was a Captain of the Policia Federales detailed to liaison with the ARWV International experts as they worked on the managment consulting and communication protocol planning for which they were contracted.

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And are the two silenced MP5s really going to be that useful versus having another couple M4 with some more punch?
That's a debatable point, certainly, but the players did not feel inclined to argue with their contact on the issue. Could they have convinced him to sign out more M4A1s from the active SWAT armory instead of pilfering less easily tracked gear from storage? Perhaps.

But they were, at any rate, more comfortable with MP5s using subsonic JHPs than they would have been with M4A1s using supersonic M855 ball. Thin plywood walls and hostages are a poor combination when one is firing ball.*

*It is true that in some materials, 9mm rounds actually penetrate better than 5.56mm rounds that may break up shortly after contact. This fact, however, is reflected neither in GURPS game stats nor in the player's knowledge and so they considered it an article of faith that the submachine guns were safer weapons for hostage rescue. In the event, the players observed excellent shot discipline and were acutely conscious of risks downrange.

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Since this is an actual cartel property in actual Mexico, I'd rate the chances of encountering guards in soft body armor as fairly good...I suppose the suppressed weapons might get you some advantage in slowing down enemy response time...
Soft body armour was certainly present, yes, but that only encouraged the PCs to aimi for the head. Given that one was a former Delta operator, one a former Special Agent of the HRT, one a DEVGRU operator and one a Scout/Sniper from Force Recon and MARSOC; most of them had the shooting skills to do that reliably. Ironically, the team leader, being the only one among them who had not previously been a part of an elite hostage rescue unit*, was by far the least accomplished shot, though that was less because of his lack of ability than it was due to the extremely high level of proficiency among the other operators.

*US Army Rangers are an elite force, but their primary duties are different from dedicated counter-terror groups.
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Old 05-24-2010, 10:27 AM   #26
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Most practically, though, it was because their contact could supply them with as many MP5s or G3s as they wanted, but was reluctant in the extreme to supply anything that was more likely to be missed. He did have access to an M4A1 rifle and a P90 that he kept to allow foreign visitors to try for amusement.*
Ah, supply complications.

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But they were, at any rate, more comfortable with MP5s using subsonic JHPs than they would have been with M4A1s using supersonic M855 ball. Thin plywood walls and hostages are a poor combination when one is firing ball.*
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Soft body armour was certainly present, yes, but that only encouraged the PCs to aimi for the head. Given that one was a former Delta operator, one a former Special Agent of the HRT, one a DEVGRU operator and one a Scout/Sniper from Force Recon and MARSOC; most of them had the shooting skills to do that reliably. Ironically, the team leader, being the only one among them who had not previously been a part of an elite hostage rescue unit*, was by far the least accomplished shot, though that was less because of his lack of ability than it was due to the extremely high level of proficiency among the other operators.
Ah, I wasn't aware they were THAT good! Also, I missed the 'hostage rescue' part. Makes more sense now.
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Old 05-25-2010, 08:13 AM   #27
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Default Re: Tactical Shooting: A New World: A Private War On Narcoterrorism

[QUOTE=Icelander;987526]You mean like the first aid kit Arthur Reyes Malango carried in his bag?

Yeah like the one carries already in his Bag ....

mea culpa
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Old 05-25-2010, 08:15 AM   #28
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Default Re: Tactical Shooting: A New World: A Private War On Narcoterrorism

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You mean like the first aid kit Arthur Reyes Malango carried in his bag?
Yeah like the one carries already in his Bag ....

mea culpa

Seems so that TS will pack some awesome stuff to game with....
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Old 05-25-2010, 09:25 AM   #29
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Default Re: Tactical Shooting: A New World: A Private War On Narcoterrorism

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Seems so that TS will pack some awesome stuff to game with....
Lead Playtester speaking: you're not wrong about that.

This was a VERY good manuscript, made better with lots of actual play by some very industrious testers.

There's going to be tons of good stuff here.
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Old 05-25-2010, 05:25 PM   #30
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Default Re: Tactical Shooting: A New World: A Private War On Narcoterrorism

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Lead Playtester speaking: you're not wrong about that.

This was a VERY good manuscript, made better with lots of actual play by some very industrious testers.

There's going to be tons of good stuff here.
Yeah, I believe I can unhesitatingly endorse the manuscript and recommend it to anyone interested in gaming out shooting scenarios.

This applies even if you want powerful PCs and shootouts where they drop hordes of foes, mind you. As long as the intended tone and feel is realistic-flavoured, GURPS Tactical Shooting will have lots to contribute. It will power anything from the psychological grit of 'Unforgiven' or 'Blood Diamond' to action movies like 'Casino Royale' or 'S.W.A.T.' that use only the merest hint of realism as spice.
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