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Old 05-05-2010, 02:25 PM   #41
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy on the cheap...

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
I just put up a GDF of my Mystic Knight cut down templates at the
GCA REPOSITORY.
Nicely done!

as the creator of the Mystic Knight, I feel that the concept doesn't work that well without 250 points, but still, if I had to cut back, I would do it in a similar manner (MK have the basic knight stat lines, more or less, so similar cuts work nicely). The main problem at low levels is that Imbuement skills can take really bad penalties, and burn through your FP like there's no tomorow, and that investing so many points in Imbue and Eldrich talent, to pick only 5-10 imbuement skills is such a waste...
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Old 05-05-2010, 02:27 PM   #42
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy on the cheap...

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Mystic Knight - 100:

Attributes: ST 11 [10]; DX 11 [20]; IQ 10 [0]; HT 11 [10].
Secondary Characteristics: Damage 1d/2d-1; BL 29 lbs.; HP 12 [0]; Will 10 [0]; Per 10 [0]; FP 11 [0]; Basic Speed 5.00 [-10]; Basic Move 5 [0].
Advantages: Take Eldrich Talent 2 instead of Eldrich Talent 3 [-5]. Take Imbue 1 instead of Imbue 2 [-9]. Take only 25 points (not 51) from among the listed advantages.
Skills: Select 5 Imbuements instead of 10, and only spend 5 more points on Imbuements instead of 10. [-10]
This is really kewl. Starting at a lower level and moving up was always one of the fun things about playing D&D for me. Sure you could just roll up a player at 14th level but to play it from 1st level all the way to 14th was really fun for me. 250 cps is just too powerful to start with for me. 100 cps would work nicely, Good work!
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Old 05-05-2010, 04:48 PM   #43
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy on the cheap...

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Originally Posted by Kuroshima View Post
The main problem at low levels is that Imbuement skills can take really bad penalties, and burn through your FP like there's no tomorow, and that investing so many points in Imbue and Eldrich talent, to pick only 5-10 imbuement skills is such a waste...
But that's the point! These scaled back characters are supposed to be able to kick all sorts of ass out of the gate. Much like low-level D&D characters couldn't. So the fact that they're not hitting that often and can't attempt cool powers without getting tired quickly is by design; it makes it so that when you can do those things that you savor it.
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Old 05-06-2010, 07:40 AM   #44
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy on the cheap...

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Originally Posted by Kuroshima View Post
Nicely done!

as the creator of the Mystic Knight, I feel that the concept doesn't work that well without 250 points, but still, if I had to cut back, I would do it in a similar manner (MK have the basic knight stat lines, more or less, so similar cuts work nicely). The main problem at low levels is that Imbuement skills can take really bad penalties, and burn through your FP like there's no tomorow, and that investing so many points in Imbue and Eldrich talent, to pick only 5-10 imbuement skills is such a waste...
In some ways, it's the same problem the Wizard template has (and the Monk has) - but in a 100 point game, you really shouldn't be facing situations that need you to rack up big penalties, and you shouldn't be facing big fights against lots of tough foes that would cause you to bottom out your FP.

I do agree though that it really shines at higher point values.
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Old 08-30-2010, 09:46 PM   #45
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy on the cheap...

I've updated my files to include the Innkeeper from DF10 and the Ninja & Assassin from DF11. I also corrected a couple minor errors in the HTML file.
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Old 08-31-2010, 03:47 AM   #46
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy on the cheap...

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What about rolling skills back, too? A 1st level old school D&D Fighter has a 50% of missing a unarmed unarmored opponent after six full seconds of attacking him. First level wizards had 1 spell IIRC. If you really want that old school feel, you might want 25-100 point characters.
As I pointed out in the "Re: GURPS does dungeon crawl?" thread using Dia Blackthorn (the GURPS 3e version) as my example a 100pt GURPS character is all over the map in AD&D1 terms.

Dia's Traps skill: 9th level Thief

Pickpocket, Lockpicking, and Stealth (Move Silently and Hide in Shadows): better than a 14th level thief.

Assuming AC 10 roughlyequates to Dodge 4 (and Parry and Dodge equivalent are in AD&D hit points): to hit is better than a 16th level thief.

Hear Noises (a perseption roll in GURPS): 17th level thief only had 50% to hear anything.

Climbing: only AD&D1 skill that is worst than even 1st level Thief
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Old 08-31-2010, 04:01 AM   #47
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy on the cheap...

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
In some ways, it's the same problem the Wizard template has (and the Monk has) - but in a 100 point game, you really shouldn't be facing situations that need you to rack up big penalties, and you shouldn't be facing big fights against lots of tough foes that would cause you to bottom out your FP.
Let's remember that in AD&D, especially in 1e, the Magic-User (Wizard) and Monk were the poster children of all that was wrong with the game. AD&D had this very weird mind set of if a class was insane bad-ass at high level the only way to balance this out was to make them so pathetically weak at 1st level that they were effectively jokes.
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Old 08-31-2010, 04:53 AM   #48
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy on the cheap...

This is fantastic. Great work!

I was working on the same thing myself and getting nowhere.

In any other genre, scaling back the attributes while leaving the skills intact would be exactly the wrong thing to do. In dungeon fantasy, it works! Traditional DF characters got more competent in general as they went up in levels, rather than raising individual skills. Bumping stats has a similar effect.
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Old 08-31-2010, 05:48 AM   #49
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy on the cheap...

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Originally Posted by ericbsmith View Post
This article describes how to scale back the various character from Dungeon Fantasy to 100, 150 and 200 points.
<just kidding>
You run low point characters as if that somehow demonstrated some roleplaying excellence, but in reality you're just an irritating poser who couldn't roleplay yourself out of a paper bag.
</kidding>

Nice job!
That is a really good and useful article, it's a pity you didn't submit it to Pyramid! (On the other hand, it is nice we don't have to pay to read it ^^).

I will point out that these "reduced" templates can also be very useful as NPCs in a high-powered campaign, or as inspiration for a more low-powered, pseudo-realistic fantasy campaign with a DF flavour.
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Old 09-01-2010, 11:23 AM   #50
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy on the cheap...

With the Innkeeper, Justicar, and Ninja in there, you are 100% welcome to stealing my Mystic Knight writeup if you like it and including in your article.

I'd really like it if you did (or wrote up your own if you don't like my take :D) because my inner completest is nagging me about it.
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