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Old 07-23-2014, 03:23 PM   #1411
Flyndaran
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Default Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
...

Your visual cortex alone doesn't know what written words mean, this is pretty clear from brain damage studies.
Your speech centers alone appear to have the ability to generate outputs based on inputs but aren't capable of generating intention by themselves, as far as I understand the neurobiology. This is why so much human speech is able to be done with minimal conscious thought and people are able to "speak before they think", right?
I've been fully asleep and had complete conversations with people without them ever knowing I wasn't awake.
Though if talking while falling asleep I stop making sense, but will continue speaking.
I've even done it while awake but when my mind wanders, and my mouth continues. Autopilot can do some odd things.

There is no one me. I am an averaging of many brain modules and voices doing separate things not always toward a common goal.
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Old 07-23-2014, 03:34 PM   #1412
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Default Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

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I've been fully asleep and had complete conversations with people without them ever knowing I wasn't awake.
Though if talking while falling asleep I stop making sense, but will continue speaking.
I've even done it while awake but when my mind wanders, and my mouth continues. Autopilot can do some odd things.

There is no one me. I am an averaging of many brain modules and voices doing separate things not always toward a common goal.
Clearly you are a non-sapient, then. :)
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Old 07-23-2014, 03:36 PM   #1413
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Default Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

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Isn't the point of the thought experiment to demonstrate that an AI that can pass a Turing test isn't really sapient? Because the procedure carried out by the AI and the one carried out by the room are supposed to be equivalent?
That was the point of Searle, who came up with it about 35 years ago, was making, but he was a cognitive scientist who said the room and by extension all machines lack what he called intentionality, and so the strong AI concept was false; machines can only mimic human behavior.

But since then further studies on the mechanics of the brain support the view the humans can only mimic human behavior as well, so a machine that mimics human behavior is just as good. If you want to take that as meaning no one understands Chinese, and thus no one truly understands anything, that takes us back to the position of Socrates, which is not a terribly bad place to be.
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Old 07-23-2014, 03:51 PM   #1414
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Default Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

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That was the point of Searle, who came up with it about 35 years ago, was making,
Well, yes.
To clarify:
Searle's famous thought experiment "The Chinese Room", is either flawed or is something I don't understand. The logical conclusion (I think) is that if does it demonstrates that AI cannot be sapient, then the same logic demonstrates that sapience doesn't actually exist in any thinking system. Which I don't think is what Searle actually meant. By "nobody actually speaks Chinese" I meant that the criterion by which Searle concludes that the AI doesn't actually speak Chinese applies to any system (including human consciousness) that purports to speak Chinese.
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but he was a cognitive scientist who said the room and by extension all machines lack what he called intentionality, and so the strong AI concept was false; machines can only mimic human behavior.
It hasn't gone away, smart people still seem to think as Searle does. For example, that seems to be position of tantric in the quoted post above. This indicates to me that I'm missing something (most likely), or they are (less likely).
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But since then further studies on the mechanics of the brain support the view the humans can only mimic human behavior as well, so a machine that mimics human behavior is just as good.
I don't see how this flaw in the Chinese Room isn't apparent even without current neuroscience. The idea of intention being an emergent property of the brain isn't a new one. The idea that you can't prove that anybody else is sapient is also not a new one.
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If you want to take that as meaning no one understands Chinese, and thus no one truly understands anything, that takes us back to the position of Socrates, which is not a terribly bad place to be.
Maybe, except for the part where you back a coup to replace democracy with despotism and get executed. That part is no bueno.
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Old 07-23-2014, 04:25 PM   #1415
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Default Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
I've been fully asleep and had complete conversations with people without them ever knowing I wasn't awake.
Though if talking while falling asleep I stop making sense, but will continue speaking.
I've even done it while awake but when my mind wanders, and my mouth continues. Autopilot can do some odd things.

There is no one me. I am an averaging of many brain modules and voices doing separate things not always toward a common goal.
I am subject to sleep disturbances and absent-mindedness and I have also observed this sort of thing, including a video of myself doing things that I could not recall doing, even afterwards watching the video and returning to the scene to attempt a re-enactment. In particular, "I" have a habit of tucking carried items out of the way or even out of sight to free my hand for more pressing uses.

This sort of plurality of consciousness idea in cognitive science goes back at least as far Marvin Minsky, and has gained support from studies since.
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Old 07-23-2014, 06:05 PM   #1416
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Default Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

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This sort of plurality of consciousness idea in cognitive science goes back at least as far Marvin Minsky, and has gained support from studies since.
But people still say things like tantric did about Turing testable AI somehow not being really aware. Whatever that means. Which is why we are discussing this now.

People still talk about the Chinese Room, too and some smart people seem to think that it is correct, AFAICT.
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Old 07-23-2014, 06:26 PM   #1417
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Default Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

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But people still say things like tantric did about Turing testable AI somehow not being really aware. Whatever that means. Which is why we are discussing this now.

People still talk about the Chinese Room, too and some smart people seem to think that it is correct, AFAICT.
Can you link me to the thinking of the smart people you have in mind?
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Old 07-23-2014, 06:31 PM   #1418
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Default Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

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Can you link me to the thinking of the smart people you have in mind?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room doesn't present it as an obsolete or disproven idea.

More immediately there's whatever this means:
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Frankly, I don't buy AI at all. They might be *useful* and even smart, but not aware.
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Old 07-23-2014, 07:00 PM   #1419
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Default Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

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More immediately there's whatever this means:
already done them, next please
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Old 07-23-2014, 07:52 PM   #1420
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Default Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

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I am subject to sleep disturbances and absent-mindedness and I have also observed this sort of thing, including a video of myself doing things that I could not recall doing, even afterwards watching the video and returning to the scene to attempt a re-enactment. In particular, "I" have a habit of tucking carried items out of the way or even out of sight to free my hand for more pressing uses.

This sort of plurality of consciousness idea in cognitive science goes back at least as far Marvin Minsky, and has gained support from studies since.
My right hand has a kind of simple mind all its own. A few times it's risen almost to the level of alien hand syndrome.
If something is just outside my field of view on the right side, that hand will sometime jerk and flick it away without my conscious awareness.
It's also jerked and stabbed my left hand on three or so occasions.

I can't not think that our minds are multitudes.
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