Questions about Military Ranks

[Mgellis]

Friends,

I am working on an article that includes some expanded ranks tables for 4e GURPS Traveller. I'd be grateful if anyone could address a few questions...

1. For the Army, I am drawing mostly on GT: Ground Forces. I am assuming the highest rank is normally General (O10). As for higher ranks, I am adding this note...

Note: Two higher ranks, Subsector Marshal and Sector Grand Marshal (see GURPS Traveller: Nobles, p. 71), are special appointments, usually only used in wartime. The Lord Marshal of the Unified Armies is a position in the Imperial government rather than a military rank.

Is this correct? Reasonable? Supported by canon?

2. For the Marines, I am also relying on GT: Ground Forces. I am assuming the highest rank is 8 (Marshal), with this note...

Note: According to GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces, the Marines “have no equivalent to the Army’s two highest ranks, and currently do not use the rank of marshal” (p. 51). The Commandant, “an advisor the Imperial High Command” (GURPS Traveller: Nobles, p. 63) is usually either a Brigadier General or a Marshal.

Is this correct? Reasonable? Supported by canon?

3. Do the Scouts have Service Academies like the Army, Navy, and Marines? I downloaded First In (wonderful book...lots of fun stuff) but I could not find anything about it in there. Am I just missing it? (Page reference?)

4. For the Scouts, I am using First In as my primary source for ranks. The highest rank listed is the Sector Scout Leader. I am adding this note...

Note: The Director of the Imperial Interstellar Scout Service (see GURPS Traveller: Nobles, p. 71) is a position in the Imperial government rather than a rank.

Is this correct? Reasonable? Supported by canon?

5. The article will include a corrected version of the Navy ranks table (I made a couple of dumb mistakes I didn't catch before I sent it out...grrr!). One big change is that I'm adding Commodore as a permanent rank, which seems to be something I left out from canon sources. So the higher ranks now read like this...

O7/Military Rank 7/Commodore
O8/Military Rank 7/Rear Admiral
O9/Military Rank 8/Vice Admiral (Fleet Admiral)
O10/Military Rank 8/Admiral (Sector Admiral)
O11/Military Rank 8/Grand Admiral

...and the following note...

Note: The First Lord of the Admiralty (see GURPS Traveller: Nobles, p. 71) is a position in the Imperial government rather than a military rank.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks to everyone in advance for your help.

Mark

[Cargoman]

Ground forces ranks above Colonel (for the U.S. at least)

Be , Brigadeer Genral ,one star
My ,Major Genral ,two star
Little ,Leutenant Genral ,three star
Genral ,Genral ,four star
of the Army ,Genral of the Army/theater ,five star [only in times of war]

Hope this helps.

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by Mgellis

5. The article will include a corrected version of the Navy ranks table (I made a couple of dumb mistakes I didn't catch before I sent it out...grrr!). One big change is that I'm adding Commodore as a permanent rank, which seems to be something I left out from canon sources. So the higher ranks now read like this...

O7/Military Rank 7/Commodore
O8/Military Rank 7/Rear Admiral
O9/Military Rank 8/Vice Admiral (Fleet Admiral)
O10/Military Rank 8/Admiral (Sector Admiral)
O11/Military Rank 8/Grand Admiral

I would suggest that if you are going to deviate from canon (and I can only applaud your intention, as you may already suspect ;-), you might as well do it properly:

O7/Military Rank 7/Commodore
O8/Military Rank 7/Rear Admiral
O9/Military Rank 7/Vice Admiral
O10/Military Rank 8/Admiral
O11/Military Rank 8/Fleet Admiral
O12/Military Rank 8/Sector Admiral
O13/Military Rank 8/Grand Admiral


Hans

[thrash]

Originally Posted by Mgellis

Is this correct? Reasonable? Supported by canon?

The one original quote from canon which bears on your questions is:

"The Imperial Interstellar Scout Service is a major service within the Imperium, equal in stature to the Imperial Army and the Imperial Navy, although assigned a variety of unique, primarily non-military missions."

Book 6, Scouts, p. 4. (1983)

This is the source for the Imperial Marines not having higher ranking officers or a separate ministerial position, while the Imperial Army does.

3. Do the Scouts have Service Academies like the Army, Navy, and Marines? I downloaded First In (wonderful book...lots of fun stuff) but I could not find anything about it in there. Am I just missing it? (Page reference?)

Not that I know of. The implication is that, since the Scouts don't have officers per se, there is no need for a service academy. There are occasional references to training bases (cf. Katarulu/Trin's Veil).

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

I would suggest that if you are going to deviate from canon (and I can only applaud your intention, as you may already suspect ;-), you might as well do it properly:

O7/Military Rank 7/Commodore
O8/Military Rank 7/Rear Admiral
O9/Military Rank 7/Vice Admiral
O10/Military Rank 8/Admiral
O11/Military Rank 8/Fleet Admiral
O12/Military Rank 8/Sector Admiral
O13/Military Rank 8/Grand Admiral

I concur with Hans.

[Mgellis]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

I would suggest that if you are going to deviate from canon (and I can only applaud your intention, as you may already suspect ;-), you might as well do it properly:

O7/Military Rank 7/Commodore
O8/Military Rank 7/Rear Admiral
O9/Military Rank 7/Vice Admiral
O10/Military Rank 8/Admiral
O11/Military Rank 8/Fleet Admiral
O12/Military Rank 8/Sector Admiral
O13/Military Rank 8/Grand Admiral


Hans

I think I may go with something like this. It does solve the problem of not enough administrative ranks at the higher levels, where you have such huge responsibilities. But what I'm really doing is subdividing the old Commodore, Fleet Admiral, and Sector Admiral Ranks from High Guard. So it should probably look like this...

O7/Military Rank 7/Commodore
O8/Military Rank 7/Rear Admiral
O9/Military Rank 8/Vice Admiral
O10/Military Rank 8/Fleet Admiral
O11/Military Rank 8/Admiral
O12/Military Rank 8/Sector Admiral
O13/Military Rank 8/Grand Admiral

The old ranks are retained, in their proper order, but each has been given a junior or senior level. Also, you really need, I think, a middle rank between an officer who commands a sector fleet and the 16 admirals who each control a subsector fleet. In effect, an Admiral (O11) is a "quadrant admiral."

Does this make sense?

This is very helpful. Thanks. Please keep the comments coming!

Mark

[Mgellis]

Actually, when I did a little research, it looks like you guys are right. It should be...

O7/Military Rank 7/Commodore
O8/Military Rank 7/Rear Admiral
O9/Military Rank 8/Vice Admiral
O10/Military Rank 8/Admiral
O11/Military Rank 8/Fleet Admiral
O12/Military Rank 8/Sector Admiral
O13/Military Rank 8/Grand Admiral

I'm leaving Vice Admirals at O8, though. And I suspect the responsibilities often work out to something like this...

O7/Military Rank 7/Commodore <-- tactical command
O8/Military Rank 7/Rear Admiral <-- tactical command
O9/Military Rank 8/Vice Admiral <-- deputy subsector fleet commander
O10/Military Rank 8/Admiral <-- subsector fleet commander
O11/Military Rank 8/Fleet Admiral <-- deputy sector fleet commander
O12/Military Rank 8/Sector Admiral <-- sector fleet commander
O13/Military Rank 8/Grand Admiral <-- domain commander

Does this make sense?

This has been very helpful. Thank you. Please keep the comments and suggestions coming.

Mark

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by Mgellis

Note: Two higher ranks, Subsector Marshal and Sector Grand Marshal (see GURPS Traveller: Nobles, p. 71), are special appointments, usually only used in wartime. The Lord Marshal of the Unified Armies is a position in the Imperial government rather than a military rank.

There's an Army Vice-Marshal for Rhylanor mentioned in the TNS for 1107.

General Lord Kurt Feltenberg, mentioned on p. 135 of Ground Forces, was appointed Marshal of Jewell in 1116 when his predecessor retired.

I think that Vice-Marshal and Marshal are perfectly normal peacetime appointments (and wartime too, of course).


Hans

[Mgellis]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

There's an Army Vice-Marshal for Rhylanor mentioned in the TNS for 1107.

General Lord Kurt Feltenberg, mentioned on p. 135 of Ground Forces, was appointed Marshal of Jewell in 1116 when his predecessor retired.

I think that Vice-Marshal and Marshal are perfectly normal peacetime appointments (and wartime too, of course).


Hans

How about this...

O10/8/General
O11/8/Vice Marshal
O12/8/Subsector Marshal
O13/8/Sector Grand Marshal

Note: A Vice Marshal is a usually the joint commander of all ground, surface navy, and aerospace Army units for a planet with a high population. The Lord Marshal of the Unified Armies (see GURPS Traveller: Nobles, p. 71) is a position in the Imperial government rather than a military rank.

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by Mgellis

How about this...

O10/8/General
O11/8/Vice Marshal
O12/8/Subsector Marshal
O13/8/Sector Grand Marshal

Actually, Kurt Feltenberg's title appears to be general; marshal is appearantly a post.

Note: A Vice Marshal is a usually the joint commander of all ground, surface navy, and aerospace Army units for a planet with a high population. The Lord Marshal of the Unified Armies (see GURPS Traveller: Nobles, p. 71) is a position in the Imperial government rather than a military rank.

Feltenberg is marshal of Jewell -- that's one subsector. There are presumably sector marshals too. But I don't see that as a problem. 'Lord Marshal' would just be another temporary post. Maybe the correct terms are 'Subsector Marshal', 'Sector Marshal', 'Domain Marshal', 'Lord Marshal of the Imperium'.

Or you could decide that GF inadvertently omitted the 'Vice' and Feltenberg is actually a Vice-Marshal too. This would fit with the fact that Adam Lord Bryor has an office of his own and appear to be speaking for the entire Duchy of Rhylanor (Note: The text can also be interpreted to mean that he is speaking for Rhylanor the world only). That would give you Vice-Marshal for subsectors and Marshals for sectors.

Not that I would object to a revision of the rank system. I'd just like to suggest that if the ranking fleet admiral of a system, subsector, sector, or domain is usually an O<X>, then IMO his army opposite number should not (usually) be of higher rank (And as I've always thought of the Imperial Navy as the senior branch, maybe no more than an O<X-1>).


Hans

[Mgellis]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

Not that I would object to a revision of the rank system. I'd just like to suggest that if the ranking fleet admiral of a system, subsector, sector, or domain is usually an O<X>, then IMO his army opposite number should not (usually) be of higher rank (And as I've always thought of the Imperial Navy as the senior branch, maybe no more than an O<X-1>).


Hans

The idea of the Navy being the senior service makes a lot of sense. Maybe Army Ranks should only just go up to General (O10, "four star"). Ground Forces suggests that an O10 would be used to command a field army, consisting of three or four corps.

As for the rank of Marshal, I think I found the answer...

"The Unified Army takes its orders from the subsector's highest-ranking noble, who commonly appoints an experienced general to serve as marshal. This appointment to subsector marshal is for life." (Ground Forces, p. 18)

This suggests that a marshal is simply a general who has been given an administrative position by the subsector duke. A marshal is basically the duke's "Chief of Staff of the Subsector Army," the highest ranking military officer in the subsector. The Sector Grand Marshal is probably the same, but for the Sector Command reporting to the sector duke. So there is no need to list a rank higher than General (O10).

(The current CoS for the US Army and the Vice CoS are both four-star generals, so I assume marshals of the Imperium do not have to have extra rank above O10.)

As for the Marines, they do not use the rank of Marshal at the moment; I think for my article, I may just avoid the whole issue and leave it out, letting the highest rank be the Brigadier General (O7). Any force higher than this would simply be under the jurisdiction of a Navy Admiral.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Mark