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Old 07-31-2009, 03:47 AM   #21
Agemegos
 
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Default Re: Imperial Marines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boobis View Post
BTW what does the DR model, reinforced bone?
DR, a few points of Hard To Kill, Injury Tolerance (unbreakable bones), and a few Extra Hit Points make up a package representing a biomod called "military and police reinforcement". This is a step up from "sports reinforcement", but it stops short of dermal armour, testicle tucks, and other extreme measures. Sports reinforcement is meant to protect Rugby players and the like from broken bones, dislocations, and sprains, so it concentrates on reinforcing bones and joints. M&P reinforcement is meant to keep soldiers and policement alive long enough to get them to hospital when they have been shot or stabbed. So it pays more attention to blood vessels, certain rupturable organs, and penetrating injuries to the spine.

The bones are reinforced with high-strength composites. In sports jobs the vault of the skull is simply reinforced with a grid of straps, but military & police reinforcement means an complete composite brain-box, and a lot of attention to making the vertebrae a bit bulletproof.

The ligaments are reinforced with high-strength fibres, which are directly bonded to the reinforcing members in the bones to prevent dislocations and sprains. In the sports jobs reinforcing the spinal ligaments is considered enough. In good M&P reinforcement the spinal cord is enmeshed in tough fibres to protect it from fragments and blades.

Internal organs prone to rupture and tearing (the liver, kidneys, pancreas, and spleen) are enveloped in ballistic mesh. In good M&P jobs the liver and pancreas are laced though with a spongework of ballistic fibres.

In M&P jobs only, the peritoneum and intercostals are laced with ballistic fibre to reduce penetrating injury, the reniforcing straps of the ribs are extended to full width, and the pericardium is heavily reinforced. The walls of all major blood vessels have high-strength mesh woven into them, and a set of bio-mimetic valves are installed to cut off blood flow to any vessel that is ruptured.
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Old 07-31-2009, 06:39 AM   #22
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Default Re: Imperial Marines

Cross Posted to the Flat Black forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander
Born Soldier Talent [5/level];Stalker Talent [5/level]
Source?

Quote:
Perks:[12].
With the Perks from MOS training doesn't this meet or exceed the recommend maximum for perks? I don't think it's a good idea to put this many perks in a template. Perks are meant to help differentiate characters, you shouldn't require so many that you prevent this. What's the point of having additional perks with the MA styles, if you've maxed them out with the Templates?

A lot of the skills seem excessive and should probably be MOS specific or performed at default. Granted this may be a case of allowing my personal experience as a "exponent of the use of controlled violence" which doesn't seem to actually apply much here, but I've done more field days than I can count and I still don't think I have better than default Housekeeping.
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Old 07-31-2009, 07:18 AM   #23
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Default Re: Imperial Marines

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Source?
GURPS SEALS In Vietnam.

May have come from somewhere else before that.

Born Soldier: Leadership, Savoir-Faire (Military),
Scrounging, Soldier, and Tactics. Reaction bonus: other soldiers.
5 points/level.
Stalker: Camouflage, Hiking, Navigation (Land), Stealth,
and Tracking. Reaction bonus: hunters, trackers, etc. 5
points/level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
With the Perks from MOS training doesn't this meet or exceed the recommend maximum for perks?
The recommended maximum for perks is 1 per 25 points of character, with combat perks specifically being 1 per 20 points of combat skills + 1 per 10 points of style skills.

In any case, we're nowhere close to that limit here.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
I don't think it's a good idea to put this many perks in a template. Perks are meant to help differentiate characters, you shouldn't require so many that you prevent this. What's the point of having additional perks with the MA styles, if you've maxed them out with the Templates?
Part of what Perks do is differentiate characters, yes. Other parts is to allow us to accurately represent training that does not correlate to any specific GURPS skill or may be too narrow to fit generic skill.

Robust Senses comes from Kromm's lens for urban assault operators. Cross-Training is pretty much a given for modern or near-modern commandos, as per SEALS In Vietnam. Sanitised Metabolism is a biomod they all have. SOP (Moves Under Cover) is something Kromm posted as being standard to graduates of urban warfare training and SOP (On Alert) is for graduates of boot camp. The Armour Familitarity is necessary to make their Fairbairn-inspired style work in tactical gear or body armour.

In this case, these perks serve to differentiate an urban commando from a civilian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
A lot of the skills seem excessive and should probably be MOS specific or performed at default.
The skill lists in GURPS Special Ops really are this long. Anything meant to be performed in the field and under pressure is usually at skill 14+. If anything, I was conservative compared to the writeups there, most of which would come out to 500+ points in 4e.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Granted this may be a case of allowing my personal experience as a "exponent of the use of controlled violence" which doesn't seem to actually apply much here, but I've done more field days than I can count and I still don't think I have better than default Housekeeping.
I thought keeping their quarters spotless qualified as a use of Housekeeping and I think Imperial Marines take a lot of pride in their surroundings.

No one dies if I take it out, but it's probably used a fair bit in any military.
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Old 07-31-2009, 07:27 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
No one dies if I take it out, but it's probably used a fair bit in any military.
At default with significant TDMs, I'd think. Ask my wife, I'm not any better at keeping a civilian house than I ever was. Military housekeeping is to civilian housekeeping as cooking from detailed recipes is to Iron Chef style improvisation.

I also question (perhaps even protest) the inclusion of Rugby. Although this is largely because I was planning on making a Hellion who defies the stereotype and actually dislikes organized sports. :)
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Old 07-31-2009, 07:32 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
At default with significant TDMs, I'd think. Ask my wife, I'm not any better at keeping a civilian house than I ever was. Military housekeeping is to civilian housekeeping as cooking from detailed recipes is to Iron Chef style improvisation.
I agree that the two things are very different, but you can't make Easy skills take Optional Specialisations.

In real life, it should take very long to get rid of a hefty familitarity penalty and most soldiers don't bother if they don't particularly want to be good at civilian housekeeping.

You'd be pretty good at keeping your house shipshape and Bristol-fashion if necessary, right?

Note also that cleaning stuff of mud, without much in the ways of cleaning supplies, and doing so fast before inspection, isn't done at a TDM bonus. It's done at a penalty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
I also question (perhaps even protest) the inclusion of Rugby. Although this is largely because I was planning on making a Hellion who defies the stereotype and actually dislikes organized sports. :)
Dislike it all you want. I orginally had it optional, but put in 2 points after being specifically told so by the Viking Hat.

Regular rugby play is an official part of training.
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Old 07-31-2009, 07:35 AM   #26
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Default Re: Imperial Marines

TL 7/8 Military barracks housekeeping comments(personal experience.....I do not know 20% of stuff needed for housekeeping my mother/sister do,and on top my flat is a mess;maybe Im just lazy):

-Sheet on bed ,tightened(streached so) so coin would bounce when you drop it on it
-rim of bed,90% sheet setup with border(made by slightly pressing it with fingers,or in case of bad matress salinating fingers a tad) so it looks like box and not oval
-shining boots

.....etc is IMO only default to IQ/dex with some specialisation to do it as required THOUGH it is so minor thing that in GURPS it is Character story "benefit" and not actual points investment.

There are many small things in life that you "need to learn" for different occupations that are worth Zero points and are automatic successes if Character says hes taking his time to make it right.

Putting such things on char sheet using CPs would skyrocket CP inflation w/o real need.

Also considering that GURPS IQ is not same as rl IQ,but is raw IQ + expireance you can easily look at IQ 11 char as being IQ 10 with 50-100 such small "perks".

Look at Washing machine:

Your mother/wife/you(if living alone) have automatic success when you use it(laundry is washed and cleaned).If I(never used it in my life) take 15 min to read manual my laundry would be also as clean as yours.

1 point in skill represents very significant effort in some field.Now add "bad memory" and thing about how many things did you learn at school and dont remember now(Ofc Gurps dont represent that in any frm..it is RPG system and not RL simulation)?

So Id just say that if some Character has military background than He knows such small insignificant things...no points needed be invested.

One with Desert background will be more efficient in "washing sand from all different unpleasant spots" than someone from milder climate.Though if milder climate person takes his time,hell be as clean as Desert persona.
would be dumb to say its worth points?

Housekeeping Basic page 200:

1)Home economics:
-from buying food,paying bills,buying cloths,saving for roof repair 2 years from now,saving for holliday trip...etc

2)Domestic chores

3)Cleaning
-from washing dishes,laundry,knowledge of materials suitable to what temperatures,dies washing/ruining other wardrobe,material stretching/getting smaller,numerous chemical detergents,soups,shiners...blah blah,cooking(from porridge soup...to nice juicy meals..baking,roasting---etc)....whats best for cleaning spots,grass,oil....blah blah,dust.....

4)minor repairs

So if your profession is:

Hotel cleaning lady you should have house keeping
If youre Housewife than yes.(thats your job).
If youre "clean up guy after murder" you should have housekeeping(perk 1 task wonder chemistry.cleaning evidence can help).
If youre student living alone(your room looks like bomb exploded there)than not.
If youre Soldier in barracs you should not

Edit:Many ex/current soldiers roam this forums.ask them what do they think?

I bet majority will say same as I did.(It doesnt mean that some of them ,living alone do not have housekeeping as skill....Im just saying about ones who dont live solo for extended period of their life).

Last edited by Agramer; 07-31-2009 at 07:42 AM.
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Old 07-31-2009, 07:46 AM   #27
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Default Re: Imperial Marines

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Originally Posted by Agramer View Post
.....etc is IMO only default to IQ/dex with some specialisation to do it as required THOUGH it is so minor thing that in GURPS it is Character story "benefit" and not actual points investment.

There are many small things in life that you "need to learn" for different occupations that are worth Zero points and are automatic successes if Character says hes taking his time to make it right.

Putting such things on char sheet using CPs would skyrocket CP inflation w/o real need.

Also considering that GURPS IQ is not same as rl IQ,but is raw IQ + expireance you can easily look at IQ 11 char as being IQ 10 with 50-100 such small "perks".
Indeed. Which is why GURPS makes special operation troopers have IQ 12-13. But that's really secondary from whether or not they have enough experience at taking care of themselves, their surroundings and keeping everything clean to qualify for Housekeeping.

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Originally Posted by Agramer View Post
1 point in skill represents very significant effort in some field.Now add "bad memory" and thing about how many things did you learn at school and dont remember now(Ofc Gurps dont represent that in any frm..it is RPG system and not RL simulation)?
On the other hand, military training under pressure means that skills can be picked up much faster and constant remedial training and opportunities to use skills mean that they don't deteriorate.

A normal person living in easy indolence and with other things to do than maintain what GURPS would call useful skills is not really comparable to a special operator chosen for unusual motivation, intelligence, diligence and ability to soak up knowledge.

Remember, these aren't the guys who could pass a physical that most healthy adults can pass. There as so few marines and so many applicants that each of them is near superhuman in his motivation, which translates pretty well to the ability to learn and maintain GURPS skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agramer View Post
Housekeeping Basic page 200:

1)Home economics:
-from buying food,paying bills,buying cloths,saving for roof repair 2 years from now,saving for holliday trip...etc
Not included.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agramer View Post
2)Domestic chores
Very much included. They don't have anyone to pamper them when on deployment and they live in orbitals or spaceships, were cleanliness is pretty important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agramer View Post
3)Cleaning
-from washing dishes,laundry,knowledge of materials suitable to what temperatures,dies washing/ruining other wardrobe,material stretching/getting smaller,numerous chemical detergents,soups,shiners...blah blah,cooking(from porridge soup...to nice juicy meals..baking,roasting---etc)....whats best for cleaning spots,grass,oil....blah blah,dust.....
All of the above really. Who else does it if not them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agramer View Post
4)minor repairs
Check.

Three out of four ain't bad. ;)
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Old 07-31-2009, 07:57 AM   #28
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Default Re: Imperial Marines

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Originally Posted by Brett View Post
The Imperial Marines are the Empire's sole military force. They recruit and train about ten thousand per year, which is to say about twelve per planet per year. And therefore they can afford to set their recruiting standards very, very high. They can afford not only to insist on very high standards of capability and talent, but also on very high psychological standards. They choose only people whom they can trust with a gun, not only to shoot people who need shooting, but also not to shoot people who don't need shooting.
Sounds a lot like the Cadre in David Weber's Fury universe. Although the Empire there does have marines too, lots of them. The Cadre recruits from the marines...


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Old 07-31-2009, 08:51 AM   #29
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Default Re: Imperial Marines

Marvellous.

Housekeeping:) for mundane soldiers I can see it as covered by Soldier but, in an average 45 years of service, ISMs must have done 15 minutes per week so a mere 1cp...

At first I felt the skills points seem somewhat low, for their training and decades of service, but you have that covered by the higher IQ and DX: wisdom of experience increasing stats = better in all skills.
Is it accurate, however, to make a veteran marine better able to do non-military tasks than a civilian of the same age? Should IQ & DX be dropped a point and 4cp added to all primary skills? Years of experience being a marine but not so hot at being a civilian?
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Old 07-31-2009, 08:56 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by nik1979 View Post
It is interesting why seals and even soldiers are so high in point value. The difference between them and civilians is that ...
... GURPS point values are strongly correlated with how good you are in traditional RPG adventures. So if you would be good at combat, B&E, or social engineering, you are worth a lot of points.

To put it another way, a GURPS "world class" warrior probably needs 300 points. A GURPS "world class" accountant is probably closer to 50.
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