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Old 06-16-2009, 12:59 AM   #21
Anders
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Default Re: Is the "Inspired Creation" spell talking about rules that don't even exist?

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Originally Posted by robkelk View Post
I remember that this came from 3e GURPS Japan, my copy of which is not available to me at the moment. Perhaps somebody else could look up the relevant rules for Landwalker, given this lead...?
It is indeed from GURPS Japan (it does not appear in Ice Age), but I can't find any crafting rules in there (granted, I used my Speed-Reading skill...)

I say 'wing it'. According to Low-Tech, a roll to make a Cheap weapon is at +10, Fine is -10 and Very Fine is -20! That should give you a starting point.

Last edited by Anders; 06-16-2009 at 09:35 AM.
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:12 AM   #22
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Default Re: Is the "Inspired Creation" spell talking about rules that don't even exist?

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
A margin of success of 0 mean you have the minimal serviceable version of what you are doing. A success by 5 would mean something quite good. As for the latter, if your skill is 12, then you would have succeeded by 13. Anything over 10 and you are getting into Stradivarius territory.
You are just making this up as a guide to help, right? This is not actually from a rule anywhere, right?
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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
IIRC correctly this was in Ice Age which I believe is where the spell appeared.
But that was many years ago and I no longer have that book.
I think I recall somewhere that a crit success with a skill gavea fine quality weapon.
Actually Im thinking now this was in japan
Inspired Creation Gives a crit success automagically. If a crit gives a fine (The spell says VERY FINE weapon, mostly impossible) what does it matter if the crit was done by a person with a skill 5 levels higher? Is the time to create effected? We are backing into how long it takes to make something according to its cost. Does the time to create the item increase now that it is very fine?
Again, there are NO RULES for this spell to reference.

What happens If one casts Inspired Creation on a Quick and Dirty enchanter? My GM beats me unconscious with A basic book in each hand?

Has this not been noticed for the four years magic has been out?
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:36 AM   #23
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Default Re: Is the "Inspired Creation" spell talking about rules that don't even exist?

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Has this not been noticed for the four years magic has been out?
Probably. It is widely acknowledged that Magic has a number of problems, many of which are more immediate ("this immediately and obviously useful spell causes very bad things to happen to my campaign" as opposed to "this somewhat obscure spell makes no sense").
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:38 AM   #24
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Default Re: Is the "Inspired Creation" spell talking about rules that don't even exist?

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Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company View Post
Probably. It is widely acknowledged that Magic has a number of problems, many of which are more immediate ("this immediately and obviously useful spell causes very bad things to happen to my campaign" as opposed to "this somewhat obscure spell makes no sense").
Since I'm pretty new to GURPS and don't really have prior experience with this... what are some of those immediately and obviously useful spells that cause very bad things to happen? I'm just starting up a game and it would probably be good to know whether or not I can expect Very Bad Things from the two PC spellcasters. =P

Cheers.
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:50 AM   #25
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Default Re: Is the "Inspired Creation" spell talking about rules that don't even exist?

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Since I'm pretty new to GURPS and don't really have prior experience with this... what are some of those immediately and obviously useful spells that cause very bad things to happen?
Most of the problems are campaign background issues. The biggest stink is raised over what someone has usefully called "creating and ennobling spells." Some people have done the math and figured out that a moderately skilled wizard can produce more raw metal than any two or three Medieval European nations you'd care to name combined. If a handful of wizards (as in, not enough to fill a minivan) can replace industries on a continental scale...well, campaigns resembling any real-world society stop making sense. There are two recommended fixes for this:

1) Ignore it. You're playing a fantasy game, not a strategic socioeconomic simulation.

2) Crank down the power of the permanent creation spells. Instead of being permanent, have Earth to Stone and anything with Create in the name last a day; multiply cost by 50 to 100 to have the change made permanent. IIRC, Essential (Material) spells have similar issues.

There are, IIRC, also some problems with damage types for some spells, but I'm sure someone will be along momentarily to explain.
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Old 06-16-2009, 09:33 AM   #26
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Default Re: Is the "Inspired Creation" spell talking about rules that don't even exist?

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Originally Posted by LargePrime View Post
You are just making this up as a guide to help, right? This is not actually from a rule anywhere, right?
Making up? No. I'm looking at Task Difficulty Modifiers on B345-346.

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What happens If one casts Inspired Creation on a Quick and Dirty enchanter?
Nothing much. Enchanting isn't crafting.



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Has this not been noticed for the four years magic has been out?
Nobody cared. Inspired Creation is a plot device that doesn't work well in the hands of a PC, (like Time Travel).
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Old 06-16-2009, 09:43 AM   #27
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Default Re: Is the "Inspired Creation" spell talking about rules that don't even exist?

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Making up? No. I'm looking at Task Difficulty Modifiers on B345-346.
Which don't say anything about how margin of success or failure impacts the in-game effects of the roll. B.347, however, does at least mention them, but only to the extent that "many rules use these margins to calculate results that matter in play". Unfortunately, the crafting rules aren't one of them, because there aren't any to begin with.

In the general sense, though, even this section strongly implies that "A success is a success, unless it's a critical success or it's using rules that explicitly state otherwise." Two people with Skill 10 and Skill 14 who roll a 10 have both done their tasks equally well (unless it is a task that explicitly states otherwise) -- the difference is in frequency of success (Guy #2 is going to do that well the considerable majority of the time, but Guy #1 is not).

Cheers.

Edit: For a specific example, consider Carpentry, which at least pretends that it's following a ruleset: "A successful roll lets you do one hour's worth of competent carpentry. A failed roll means the work was bad." The end. A Skill 14 carpenter rolling a 10 doesn't do any greater quantity of work or greater quality of work than a Skill 10 carpenter, just like a Skill 14 bowman rolling a 10 doesn't shoot that goblin any better than a Skill 10 bowman rolling a 10. The only time margin of success would matter to skills like these would be during competitions of some sort -- the Skill 14 bowman would hit closer to the bulls-eye, the Skill 14 carpenter would make a more award-winning product, etc. But in non-competitive situations, the margin of success has no effect -- Skill 14 Carpenter rolling a 10 makes just as good a chair as Skill 10 Carpenter does.

Last edited by Landwalker; 06-16-2009 at 09:51 AM.
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Old 06-16-2009, 03:20 PM   #28
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Default Re: Is the "Inspired Creation" spell talking about rules that don't even exist?

One way the roll and crit could become very pertinent is if the skill is a contested roll of some sort.

Forgery is my favorite example - The craftsmanship that would go into making a fake printing plate for $20 bills could easily rival that of making a painting or forging a sword.


I'm sure there are others, but I agree that this spell very badly needs either fixing or several attached paragraphs of explanation. Just make sure not to have the 'but the rules say...' arguments take over your campaign. If we get deep into the hard underlying sciences of Crafting it could easily do so for the rules lawyers out there.
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Old 06-17-2009, 01:09 PM   #29
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Default Re: Is the "Inspired Creation" spell talking about rules that don't even exist?

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Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company View Post
Most of the problems are campaign background issues. The biggest stink is raised over what someone has usefully called "creating and ennobling spells." Some people have done the math and figured out that a moderately skilled wizard can produce more raw metal than any two or three Medieval European nations you'd care to name combined. If a handful of wizards (as in, not enough to fill a minivan) can replace industries on a continental scale...well, campaigns resembling any real-world society stop making sense. There are two recommended fixes for this:

1) Ignore it. You're playing a fantasy game, not a strategic socioeconomic simulation.

2) Crank down the power of the permanent creation spells. Instead of being permanent, have Earth to Stone and anything with Create in the name last a day; multiply cost by 50 to 100 to have the change made permanent. IIRC, Essential (Material) spells have similar issues.

There are, IIRC, also some problems with damage types for some spells, but I'm sure someone will be along momentarily to explain.

I prefer a variation on #1; assume that the socioeconomic effects of creating and ennobling spells (and healing ones, and plant ones, etc.) are precisely the reason that most fantasy worlds don't really much resemble any real-world societies of their TL once you take a good look at them.

Think about it; in many, if not most, fantasy RPG settings, the populace is better fed, healthier, has more readily available metal weapons, armor, and other tools, is better educated, further traveled, and so on, than in any comparable medieval or early Renaissance locale. It's sometimes enough to make the setting seem like a Ren Fest version of itself. Far from being a problem, I find that assuming widespread use of 'utility' spells actually serves to justify these aspects of the setting.

You might want to set certain limits, such as only letting wizards create metals from earth and stone that are already present in ore form, at least in trace amounts.
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Old 06-17-2009, 10:40 PM   #30
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Default Re: Is the "Inspired Creation" spell talking about rules that don't even exist?

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
I prefer a variation on #1; assume that the socioeconomic effects of creating and ennobling spells (and healing ones, and plant ones, etc.) are precisely the reason that most fantasy worlds don't really much resemble any real-world societies of their TL once you take a good look at them.

Think about it; in many, if not most, fantasy RPG settings, the populace is better fed, healthier, has more readily available metal weapons, armor, and other tools, is better educated, further traveled, and so on, than in any comparable medieval or early Renaissance locale. It's sometimes enough to make the setting seem like a Ren Fest version of itself. Far from being a problem, I find that assuming widespread use of 'utility' spells actually serves to justify these aspects of the setting.

You might want to set certain limits, such as only letting wizards create metals from earth and stone that are already present in ore form, at least in trace amounts.
I agree very much and its been my approach.
And spells that I dont like the potential effects are either banned or secret. Just because its in a GURPS book doesnt mean you have to have it in your campaign.
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