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Old 06-05-2009, 11:52 AM   #21
LynGrey
 
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Default Re: Attribute Limits

Hey, I know how you feel, i set a 30% of racial norm soft limit. With a good BACK story i'll allow an extra point or what not.

One gripe i have with GURPS, that Stat growth is completely linear, it takes just as much time to go from 9 to 10 as it does 13 to 14. Anybody that resistance train knows that it gets harder and harder to get gains the more stronger you get. So I allow a character to but (unusal background 10pts) for another 30% of racial norm increase to his stat. (25pts for the next 30%)

On a human its 3pts per point point of increase EXTRA, and it satisfies my need to right that linear porgression and give players an opportunities of increased ST.

I allow the 30% INCREASE to all the ST realated things.. lifting st, striking st.. what not.


Also on the other end of the scale of what Icelander said, ST isn't really the easiest thing to convert in real life. if you can say lift 500lbs in 4 seconds two handed doesn't mean you have 15 ST.. it could mean you have 14 ST with Lifting St...or 13 St with Lifting ST and the Lifting SKILL. or 12 St with lifting ST, the Lifting Skill, AND Using extra effort. There are ALOT of varibles with ST in game and out of game.
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Old 06-05-2009, 12:07 PM   #22
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Default Re: Attribute Limits

GURPS doesn't care how hard it is to increase your strength, for point valuation. It cares how useful it is to increase your strength. If you want people not to buy ST up at unrealistic rates, just require that they justify the increase to your satisfaction.
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Old 06-05-2009, 12:08 PM   #23
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Default Re: Attribute Limits

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Originally Posted by LazarusDarkeyes View Post
(a) If race A had +1 ST, and race B had +1 DX and anyone wanted to have a character with at least 11 ST and DX, then the racial choice, in that one regard, didn't matter.
That's right, it doesn't. And so far as that goes, it probably shouldn't. For example, what if I want to play a high-DX character who doesn't share other characteristics of the resident high-DX race (frex, a mundane human swashbuckler who loves cities and doesn't share the elven love of nature or their magical aptitude)? Under this scheme, I'm being punished for that because I can't get the DX I need without taking on a raft of other characteristics I don't want.

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Originally Posted by LazarusDarkeyes View Post
(b) It seemed ridiculous to me that if I had a SUPER strong race with +40 ST that, without these limits, it was fine to have a character of that race with ST 10 anyway (-80% away from the racial norm). Likewise if I had a race whose average IQ was 6 (-4), one could make a character of that race with IQ 18 (+12=+200% here).
And, yes, that might be absurd, but you're talking about extreme cases here. Are you going to have a ST40 race and players who would want to buy it down to ST10? Or an IQ6 race and players who would want to buy it up to IQ18? Is this really a problem you expect to need to fix? This really looks like a solution in search of a problem, and something which could be dealt with by, y'know, actually talking to your players if it becomes an issue rather than proactively declaring global rules which potentially complicate everyone's character creation.
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Old 06-05-2009, 01:10 PM   #24
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Default Re: Attribute Limits

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Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company View Post
And, yes, that might be absurd, but you're talking about extreme cases here. Are you going to have a ST40 race and players who would want to buy it down to ST10? Or an IQ6 race and players who would want to buy it up to IQ18? Is this really a problem you expect to need to fix? This really looks like a solution in search of a problem, and something which could be dealt with by, y'know, actually talking to your players if it becomes an issue rather than proactively declaring global rules which potentially complicate everyone's character creation.
Sadly, yes. Not so much in my current game, but I have had some players trying to abuse races and/or certain mechanics in the past. As a GM, I feel bad to tell one player he can't do something without telling it to everyone (even if only 1-2 players would ever try to do it)...thus the global rule... That is probably the origin of why I starting enforcing these limits.

Yeah...I had several extremely intelligent and well-educated (multiple degrees, MS and PhD, in mathematics/physics/CSCI/etc.) friends I gamed with. I introduced them to GURPS...and they just tore through the numbers trying to break the system. Attempting to keep them in check forced me to come up with a bunch of characters creation guidelines. Since I stopped playing with them, I've slowly gotten rid of a bunch of those guidelines, but this one sorta made sense to me.
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Old 06-05-2009, 01:16 PM   #25
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Default Re: Attribute Limits

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Originally Posted by LazarusDarkeyes View Post
Sadly, yes.
In that case, you have my deepest sympathies.
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Old 06-05-2009, 01:19 PM   #26
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Default Re: Attribute Limits

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Originally Posted by LazarusDarkeyes View Post
I introduced them to GURPS...and they just tore through the numbers trying to break the system.
But the ST 50-race-guy-with-ST 10 doesn't break the system. Neither does the genius ogre with IQ 18 - they both pay the same net point cost for the characters as anyone else would with the same collection of attributes. That's one of the reasons why GURPS doesn't give a discount or other incentive on racial attributes.

The guy who bought his ST down to 10 especially doesn't bend the system out of shape if you're using the technically-optional-but-recommended disadvantage point limits - he's eating up his entire point budget (presuming he could afford that at all) and not actually getting much for his efforts. Playing a crippled Wug might get him some natural DR or other exotic advantages that he couldn't get by playing a ST 10 human - but the crippled Wug still has to pay points for them, they're not "Free".
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Old 06-05-2009, 01:39 PM   #27
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Default Re: Attribute Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by LazarusDarkeyes View Post
I introduced them to GURPS...and they just tore through the numbers trying to break the system.

But the ST 50-race-guy-with-ST 10 doesn't break the system. Neither does the genius ogre with IQ 18 - they both pay the same net point cost for the characters as anyone else would with the same collection of attributes. That's one of the reasons why GURPS doesn't give a discount or other incentive on racial attributes.

The guy who bought his ST down to 10 especially doesn't bend the system out of shape if you're using the technically-optional-but-recommended disadvantage point limits - he's eating up his entire point budget (presuming he could afford that at all) and not actually getting much for his efforts. Playing a crippled Wug might get him some natural DR or other exotic advantages that he couldn't get by playing a ST 10 human - but the crippled Wug still has to pay points for them, they're not "Free". .

in gurps, the players break you not the system :-) There is only one thing i can think of that i have found in GURPS that smashes the game to pieces.. and if you've herd me rant, you know what it is!
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Last edited by LynGrey; 06-05-2009 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 06-05-2009, 02:51 PM   #28
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Default Re: Attribute Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by LynGrey View Post
Hey, I know how you feel, i set a 30% of racial norm soft limit. With a good BACK story i'll allow an extra point or what not.

One gripe i have with GURPS, that Stat growth is completely linear, it takes just as much time to go from 9 to 10 as it does 13 to 14. Anybody that resistance train knows that it gets harder and harder to get gains the more stronger you get. So I allow a character to but (unusal background 10pts) for another 30% of racial norm increase to his stat. (25pts for the next 30%)

On a human its 3pts per point point of increase EXTRA, and it satisfies my need to right that linear porgression and give players an opportunities of increased ST.

I allow the 30% INCREASE to all the ST realated things.. lifting st, striking st.. what not.


Also on the other end of the scale of what Icelander said, ST isn't really the easiest thing to convert in real life. if you can say lift 500lbs in 4 seconds two handed doesn't mean you have 15 ST.. it could mean you have 14 ST with Lifting St...or 13 St with Lifting ST and the Lifting SKILL. or 12 St with lifting ST, the Lifting Skill, AND Using extra effort. There are ALOT of varibles with ST in game and out of game.
This approach would be unfair to normals. If, say, there is a racial template with +10 ST, they pay 100 CP for that in the package but they gain a lot more than a human; ability to raise their ST without price inflation for another 3 levels :)

The thing is, "hardness to increase" is something you as the GM should control but not by making it more expensive pointwise.

YMMV of course.

Cheers!
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Old 06-05-2009, 03:17 PM   #29
LazarusDarkeyes
 
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Default Re: Attribute Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
But the ST 50-race-guy-with-ST 10 doesn't break the system. Neither does the genius ogre with IQ 18 - they both pay the same net point cost for the characters as anyone else would with the same collection of attributes. That's one of the reasons why GURPS doesn't give a discount or other incentive on racial attributes.

The guy who bought his ST down to 10 especially doesn't bend the system out of shape if you're using the technically-optional-but-recommended disadvantage point limits - he's eating up his entire point budget (presuming he could afford that at all) and not actually getting much for his efforts. Playing a crippled Wug might get him some natural DR or other exotic advantages that he couldn't get by playing a ST 10 human - but the crippled Wug still has to pay points for them, they're not "Free".
Sorry, I was not directly implying that those two examples I gave were breaking the system. Those were meant to be two different points...which came together ove time...

I remember (wow, coming up on 5 years ago!) one player picked a race with the most negative traits (since those wouldn't count against his Disad limit) which also gave a +2 DX bonus. His outright stated goal was to try to get the most DX bonus he could for cheapest via race. He then proceeded to buy DX up to 19, HT up to 13 and +2.00 Basic Speed to bring his Basic Speed up to 10 ==> Dodge = 13. Throw in a large shield, 2 or 4 points in acrobatics (from DX 19) for acrobatic dodge and retreating. He had a ridiculous dodge and very fast movement.

Anything I threw at the party that could catch and hit him would murder the rest of the party. And if I targeted his weaknesses (low Will, sniper missile attacks he couldn't see coming and thus couldn't dodge, etc.), I was accused of punishing that particular player by taking away his 'trick'.

This was just one instance. There were a few more instances of players becoming SUPER one-trick ponies for something and I'd get accused of punishing players for playing something they wanted to play when I'd exploit their weaknesses. I guess I got tired of that.

Thus The Guidelines were originally created as a first attempt to get them to stop trying to power-game certain things and (I'm a little shamed to say) genericize the stats of the players so they would focus more on the RP of the characters and campaign and less on the numbers of their characters.

I do not want to come off as though I'm bitching/whining about players I haven't played with in at minimum 2 years. I'm more trying to give some idea of the frustrations which motivated implementing these guidelines in the first place. Maybe the correct solution was what eventually happened: I just stopped playing with those guys. We were a bad GM-player fit.
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Old 06-05-2009, 03:35 PM   #30
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Default Re: Attribute Limits

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Originally Posted by LazarusDarkeyes View Post
We were a bad GM-player fit.
Sounds like it.

Here's an idea: rather than imposing your disad limit rules, take the possibility for abuse away by taking away character generation. Don't hand your players the rules. Rather, interview them. Discuss the kind of character they want to play, and then you turn that into stats. Certainly, there would be nothing wrong with a player saying "I'd like this attribute to be pretty good, high levels in skills X, Y, and Z, and something from this list of Advantages," and once play begins you can let them spend their trickle of new points as they will, but if you're the one with your hands on the initial numbers, you can head off intentional abuse from the very start. Might not fly with experienced players used to rolling their own, but new players might find it a bit of a relief.
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