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Old 06-05-2009, 02:17 AM   #11
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: Attribute Limits

A better way to simulate biological differences, e.g. between different species or between different sexes, is to alter the cost of attributes, e.g. by making Elves pay only 19 CPs per level for DX, but 11 CPs per level for ST.

The only problem is deciding how that works with species templates (and sex templates too, if the fact of sexual dimorphism is acknowledged).
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Old 06-05-2009, 02:21 AM   #12
Flyndaran
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Default Re: Attribute Limits

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A better way to simulate biological differences, e.g. between different species or between different sexes, is to alter the cost of attributes,...
Most GMs consider point crocks to be a big no-no.
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Old 06-05-2009, 02:31 AM   #13
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: Attribute Limits

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Most GMs consider point crocks to be a big no-no.
GMs need to decide whether they want simple rules, or rules that encourage - without enforcing - an at least slightly realistic attribute value distribution, e.g. Elves being more dextrous than Dwarves.

I'm firmly in the second camp.
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Old 06-05-2009, 02:37 AM   #14
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Default Re: Attribute Limits

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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
A better way to simulate biological differences, e.g. between different species or between different sexes, is to alter the cost of attributes, e.g. by making Elves pay only 19 CPs per level for DX, but 11 CPs per level for ST.

The only problem is deciding how that works with species templates (and sex templates too, if the fact of sexual dimorphism is acknowledged).
I disagree, I find that the best way to make racial templates special and races unique is with a big dose of exotic advantages. Stat-changes is IMO not the imporatn part of a racial template, that is a very D&D-like way to think about things. GURPS have more variety and details, use it.

To make elves more elf-like, give them Perfect balance, Cat fall, Ambidexterity, Parabolic hearing, Infravision, Magery. Many of which a normal human can't buy even if he had the points. Ofcourse this is in addition to a boost to DX.
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Old 06-05-2009, 03:20 AM   #15
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: Attribute Limits

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I disagree, I find that the best way to make racial templates special and races unique is with a big dose of exotic advantages. Stat-changes is IMO not the imporatn part of a racial template, that is a very D&D-like way to think about things. GURPS have more variety and details, use it.

To make elves more elf-like, give them Perfect balance, Cat fall, Ambidexterity, Parabolic hearing, Infravision, Magery. Many of which a normal human can't buy even if he had the points. Ofcourse this is in addition to a boost to DX.
That helps, too, but it fails to take into account the fundamental differences in attribute averages.
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Old 06-05-2009, 03:37 AM   #16
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Default Re: Attribute Limits

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That helps, too, but it fails to take into account the fundamental differences in attribute averages.
If all elves have +1 DX they will on average have higher DX than a human. Don't think like a point optimizer - E.g. use a standard warrior template with ST 12, DX 12, IQ 10 HT 12. If its an elf the warrior might have ST 12 DX 13 IQ 11 HT 12, if its a dwarf its ST 13 DX 12 IQ 10 HT 13... Both are typical warriors of their race, and still different...

Only PCs can buy what they want with their points, NPCs will have to live with what life gives them ;-)
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Old 06-05-2009, 04:21 AM   #17
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Default Re: Attribute Limits

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I have trouble believing any person without some kind of severe dwarfism sand other problems would have strength comparable to my cat.
My Cerbee had a strength of 5. He was a ball of muscle, but less than 20 pounds.
On what do you base that?

Could he carry 15 lbs. while maintaining a good clip of speed and 30 lbs. while moving above a walking pace?

Like it or not, there are human beings who have problems with the above loads. Therefore, it seems likely that their ST score would be 5 or so. Are these healthy people? No, not so much. Frequently they are suffering from malnourishment. But they still exist.
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Old 06-05-2009, 04:30 AM   #18
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Default Re: Attribute Limits

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But those records are after MASSIVE training, almost certain steroid use, in perfect health for that moment, exert themselves beyond what their bodies should be doing, and usually suffer crippling injuries as a matter of course.

I would put world record holders as having one muscle group pushing the limits with others being more in line... as well as having a very high will plus everything lining up perfectly for that moment.
I consider records as example of extreme normal strength coupled with a moment of hysterical strength.
Well, the ability to lift more than 408 lbs. (ST 16 Basic Lift x 8) doesn't seem to be all that rare. And since a ST 16 person cannot move at all while carrying more than 510 lbs., I think the existence of a competetive event where the contestants have to carry 573 lbs. of weight while running kind of disproves ST 16 as a maximum.

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In other words, I don't see how we can really agree on supposedly easily measured strength let alone the other stats.

Or to make a rambling story short, it's all good.
There are enough benchmarks in the ST rules we have to get a pretty good idea of the ST of real people. Yes, real people often vary in strength depending on what they train for, but using WSM strongmen as the basis works well since the various events are very different and call for many athleticism on many levels.
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Old 06-05-2009, 05:46 AM   #19
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Default Re: Attribute Limits

If the PCs are in agree with this rule there is not a problem.

But if you don't want a stats point inflation... DX and IQ at levels 13+ doesn't necessary the best way to spent points, unless all your primary skills are very high, say 16+, and you have more then six of then and you cannot put a tallent to boost it.

There are few cases when you test your plain DX or IQ, or put it in quick contest. And default skills, while usefull in emergence, is not necessary a necessity (unless you do a character who lacks something essencial).

ST is a complete different beast. HT too, few skills are based on HT and is hard to see a character with more then 2 or 3 of them in the sheet, and high HT is much more abusive than other attributes.
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Old 06-05-2009, 09:52 AM   #20
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Default Re: Attribute Limits

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One thing about this approach is that it actually makes racial attribute modifiers meaningful. If elves get +2 DX in a normal fantasy game, then that isn't really relevant, because the human PCs are likely to have DX 12 or better anyway. If that +2 DX lets you buy up to DX 15 when everyone else is stuck at DX 13, then it's a lot more significant.

I'd suggest letting characters push the limits a bit with an unusual training perk though. Say another +10% (or 20% for ST) with the perk, so it is possible to play a human genius or the worlds strongest dwarf if you really want to.
This line of thinking is actually what inspired me in the first place. The races DO have other exotic traits to distinguish them, but that said, something bugged me.
(a) If race A had +1 ST, and race B had +1 DX and anyone wanted to have a character with at least 11 ST and DX, then the racial choice, in that one regard, didn't matter. With the limits, now it sort of does.
(b) It seemed ridiculous to me that if I had a SUPER strong race with +40 ST that, without these limits, it was fine to have a character of that race with ST 10 anyway (-80% away from the racial norm). Likewise if I had a race whose average IQ was 6 (-4), one could make a character of that race with IQ 18 (+12=+200% here).

I was having some doubts about this though and thus I posted here. It seems the majority think there should be no limits. I'm was mostly convinced until I just typed up the points above. Can anyone address these (especially b)? At this second in time, I'm inclined to keep the limits, but relax them by 10-30%...but I'm still open-minded on the issue.
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