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Old 06-01-2009, 02:50 PM   #21
Figleaf23
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Default Re: Phantom abilities

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Originally Posted by benz72 View Post
Can't Apportation open doors and dent armor?
I presume it can open doors at least. But why do you bring up Apportation?

{Edit: Ah, I see, because it's in the prerequisites. I'm not sure that's determinitive, in that there are probably (IDHMBWM) other spells in which it is clear that the pre-req ability is not included or engaged in the higher-order spell's function.

Anyway, if a Phantom can open a door, then it can pick up a knife. If it can pick up a knife, it can drop it from a height onto someone. Whether they can see the Phantom or not or believe in it or not, presumably the knife will hurt them if it hits them.}

Last edited by Figleaf23; 06-01-2009 at 02:56 PM.
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Old 06-01-2009, 05:55 PM   #22
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Default Re: Phantom abilities

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It seems to me that if Phantoms couldn't effect inanimate items and worked solely though "belief damage" then Apportation has no business as a prerequisite. If the affected people are causing some "biofeedback" type injury, then the prerequisites should include spells from the Mind Control (or body control) college.

I see Phantom as an Illusion given substance Apportation and so can affect anything without a mind normally, but that breaks down when it has to deal with the "aura" or "Chi" or whatever of sapient minds
Hinder and Apportation specifically give it the ability to physically stop or move objects. The original write up in Grimoire took an amazing leap and used those prerequisites to give the example Phantom Dragon the ability to breathe fire. While not in the example any more, it hasn't exactly been ruled out. Personally, add Telecast as a prereq or an optional prereq that allows the caster additonal options. Then a caster who also knew Breathe Fire could have the Dragon Breathe Fire.

(Side benefit. Use the Phantom duration here, which beats that of Telecast.)

But as it stands now, Phantoms should be illusions with the ability to affect the real world via physical methods.
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Old 06-01-2009, 05:59 PM   #23
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Default Re: Phantom abilities

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Originally Posted by Figleaf23 View Post
I presume it can open doors at least.
Since the spell says it can hinder movement, but not cause it, I conclude it can't. It would be awkward if it could, since that would mean that it could pick up rocks and throw them, and it would be impossible to counter-attack because it wouldn't be solid to the counter attack.
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Old 06-01-2009, 09:24 PM   #24
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Default Re: Phantom abilities

I agree that spell like effects created by a phantom should be otherwise available as prerequisites to this spell. It kind of makes it "Magic Gumbo"... You know fire magic? it can breathe fire... You know icy weapon? then your phantom knight can have one... Just charge the fatigue cost of the other spell(s) as well when you're creating your phantom, or alternatively, when it attacks and the spell effect needs to be triggered.
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Old 06-02-2009, 08:46 AM   #25
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Default Re: Phantom abilities

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Since the spell says it can hinder movement, but not cause it, I conclude it can't. It would be awkward if it could, since that would mean that it could pick up rocks and throw them, and it would be impossible to counter-attack because it wouldn't be solid to the counter attack.
I was talking about Apportation. I don't know what to think about Phantom in this regard -- it's what I'm asking.

Your comment adds further confusion -- how can it hinder movement without being able to do other physical effects?
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Old 06-02-2009, 08:52 AM   #26
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Default Re: Phantom abilities

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Since the spell says it can hinder movement, but not cause it, I conclude it can't. It would be awkward if it could, since that would mean that it could pick up rocks and throw them, and it would be impossible to counter-attack because it wouldn't be solid to the counter attack.
I'm not certain I understand this statement. Are you saying that if it picked up a physical rock and threw it that the rock could not pe affected physically? Or are you saying that since no one has physically touched the phantom doing the throwing that anything thrown at it would pass through it as insubstantial?

If the later then perhaps the IQ/effectivness roll should be triggered by a statment more like...'The first time any living being with an IQ greater than 5 observes the phantom physically act roll a quick contest between that beings IQ and the casters skill. If the caster wins, treat as...' That way the 'moment of truth' occurs the first time someone could notice a discrepancy, either in what the phantom affects, or in the way it is affected by it's surroundings. if that interaction is a physical touch there may be a bouns in order to discern the truth of the illusion, if at a distance, range/vision penalties may be appropriate.
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Old 06-02-2009, 09:10 AM   #27
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Default Re: Phantom abilities

Just curious: where does it say that it can only impete movement of sentient entities?
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Old 06-02-2009, 09:38 AM   #28
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Default Re: Phantom abilities

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Originally Posted by Figleaf23 View Post
I was talking about Apportation. I don't know what to think about Phantom in this regard -- it's what I'm asking.

Your comment adds further confusion -- how can it hinder movement without being able to do other physical effects?
It's...magic. <dramatic gesture> Specifically, it can only hinder the movement of (or damage) a creature it beat in an IQ contest after they come into contact. Until then it can't inflict damage or be damaged. Shoot arrows at it as it approaches (or as it fights someone else) and they'll pass right through because it will be a Perfect Illusion to someone who hasn't touched it. They call it a "Phantom" because that's what it is. What kind of phantom could be take down by a thrown rock? Did you notice that Phantom actually costs more than Create Warrior?

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Old 06-02-2009, 09:54 AM   #29
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Default Re: Phantom abilities

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
It's...magic. <dramatic gesture> Specifically, it can only hinder the movement of (or damage) a creature it beat in an IQ contest after they come into contact.
Can it or can it not open a door?
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Old 06-02-2009, 10:12 AM   #30
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Default Re: Phantom abilities

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Can it or can it not open a door?
I say "not". But it can walk through one, which is cooler.

Unless of course it was a sentient door...
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