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Old 05-29-2009, 01:20 PM   #11
Figleaf23
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Default Re: Phantom abilities

I'm not clear on why a person who believes that an illusory sword is real can be hurt by it, but a person who believes that an illusory rifle is real canNOT be hurt by that.

Also, is it correct that Phantoms can open doors?
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Old 05-29-2009, 01:30 PM   #12
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Default Re: Phantom abilities

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
The reason why there are no rules for what happens before the contact is because nothing happens before the contact. Well nothing that wouldn't happen with a Perfect Illusion because as the spell description states, it's otherwise like a Perfect Illusion. And why would you even consider the possibility that you can have an IQ contest with non-sentient objects? How can an illusion fool something that has no mind?
1) It says it "behaves like a perfect illusion, but can impede movement and inflict real damage." what it does not say is that it "can inflict real damage on beings with IQ scores" What I'm reading doesn't seem to specify one way or the other.

2) The possibility of damage to mindless things comes from my perception of phantom as the middle ground between an illusion and a creation. It requires apportation as a prerequisite (which can definately affect mindless objects). It isn't called "ultimate illusion" nor is it called "minor creation" or some such thing. It seems to be the middle ground and I'm looking for some good RAW interpretations of how to utilize it.

If the RAW answer is "can only affect things with minds" then I'll keep wondering about the crushed breastplate issue. If it's "can only trick things with minds but can move and damage inanimate objects like a creation/apportation" then it seems clearer, though I'm sure we can find some edge cases. If it's more like "can move and damage anything, but things with minds get an IQ roll to resist and treat it like an illusion" then I am out of questions (for the moment at least).

Thanks for your answers. I appreciate you helping me find the boundaries on this.
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Old 05-29-2009, 01:58 PM   #13
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Default Re: Phantom abilities

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
The RAW says that the illusion can only hurt things that come into physical contact with it if it wins the IQ contest. If phantom rifleman hasn't come into contact with the target it can't hurt it, and you can't have an IQ contest with something that has no IQ.
I'm still puzzled by this idea, especially given this description.

Also, you can 'evade' or 'takedown' a DX0, ST0 item, despite these actions being resolved through a QC.
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Old 05-29-2009, 03:42 PM   #14
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Default Re: Phantom abilities

I've always thought of this spell as able to move things around and pick up objects without IQ... I've always interpreted the IQ contest as a flaw in the magic that makes it's physical effects resisted by IQ in a way. Kind of like a telekinetic being able to lift a rock, but to pick up a person you'd have to beat them in a contest...
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Old 05-30-2009, 02:27 AM   #15
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Default Re: Phantom abilities

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Originally Posted by benz72 View Post
1) It says it "behaves like a perfect illusion, but can impede movement and inflict real damage." what it does not say is that it "can inflict real damage on beings with IQ scores" What I'm reading doesn't seem to specify one way or the other.
After that first sentence, the text proceeds to illustrate the circumstances when it can't and can inflict damage. The fact that contact with a living creature is required seems to strongly indicate that it cannot affect unliving things by itself. Living, in the sense used, appears to mean thinking, as suggested by the QC, skill vs. IQ. Though it has aspects of a Creation, it seems it is properly considered more Illusion than Creation [Area effect; short casting time; is resistable in some way; affected by spells affecting Illusions].
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Old 06-01-2009, 11:56 AM   #16
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Default Re: Phantom abilities

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Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
After that first sentence, the text proceeds to illustrate the circumstances when it can't and can inflict damage. The fact that contact with a living creature is required seems to strongly indicate that it cannot affect unliving things by itself. Living, in the sense used, appears to mean thinking, as suggested by the QC, skill vs. IQ. Though it has aspects of a Creation, it seems it is properly considered more Illusion than Creation [Area effect; short casting time; is resistable in some way; affected by spells affecting Illusions].
Do you have a good explanation of how it would damage the unliving armor worn by a liging opponent in order to do damage to that opponent? I see your point, I'm just trying to get some consistency and clear lines drawn.

Thanks

Does anyone have any Krommentary on the spell?
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Last edited by benz72; 06-01-2009 at 11:57 AM. Reason: afterthought
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Old 06-01-2009, 12:41 PM   #17
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Default Re: Phantom abilities

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Originally Posted by benz72
Do you have a good explanation of how it would damage the unliving armor worn by a liging opponent in order to do damage to that opponent?
I don't think it necessarily has to damage the armor, though I suppose it still might as a special effect. The damage seems to me like it comes from belief, much like the Stigmata enhancement for Illusion.
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Old 06-01-2009, 02:01 PM   #18
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Default Re: Phantom abilities

Yes, consistency is preserved in the case of 'damaged by belief' if you say that the armour is not actually damaged, the victim just THINKS it is.

However, I still wonder, can Phantoms open doors?
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Old 06-01-2009, 03:03 PM   #19
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Default Re: Phantom abilities

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Originally Posted by Figleaf23 View Post
Yes, consistency is preserved in the case of 'damaged by belief' if you say that the armour is not actually damaged, the victim just THINKS it is.

However, I still wonder, can Phantoms open doors?

Can't Apportation open doors and dent armor?
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Old 06-01-2009, 03:31 PM   #20
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Default Re: Phantom abilities

It seems to me that if Phantoms couldn't effect inanimate items and worked solely though "belief damage" then Apportation has no business as a prerequisite. If the affected people are causing some "biofeedback" type injury, then the prerequisites should include spells from the Mind Control (or body control) college.

I see Phantom as an Illusion given substance Apportation and so can affect anything without a mind normally, but that breaks down when it has to deal with the "aura" or "Chi" or whatever of sapient minds
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