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Old 04-27-2009, 01:55 AM   #11
Mehmet
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Default Re: [DF] Difference between Hidden Lore and Occultisme?

Hidden Lore; "I know using these rituals from the mad Arab's book will cost me my sanity but I also know I can control it, see me understand the elders' magic... mwahahaha"

Occultism; "Contrary to what most Westerners think, ghouls and the black magic to create them are themes from ancient Eastern belief structures..."

Thaumatology; "Hmmmm... This is suppesed to be an "external" use of thaum so the caster should have a focus of some kind to keep himself from "burning" with the effect... A scroll of power that holds the magic locked will do, I suppose but since it affects the "psyche" of the victim I should doublecheck with Darak-Nhor's A Booke of Minde Magicke"

This is how these skills sound to me ;)

Cheerio!
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Old 04-27-2009, 02:44 AM   #12
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Default Re: [DF] Difference between Hidden Lore and Occultisme?

Hidden Lore specifically covers subjects you cannot study in school or other places where skills can be acquired.

Hidden Lore (Conspiracies), for example is a skill that tells you things that really happened that the world at large does not know or could readily be convinced of. Conspiracy Trivia covers debumked or debunkable conspiracies known publicly.

Occultism covers things that have reached public access of an exotic/mystical nature. If exotic and/or mystical things exist, some/much/most of what Occultism teaches is fairly true. Where no such thing exists, Occultims is a study of pure BS subject matter.

Hidden Lore (Magic Item Construction) would be secret turths about those who make magic items, places where lost items acquire magical abilities after being hiddenf or centuries and so on.

Thaumatology would cover the actual science behind magic, or at least it's rules if magic is something so different 'science' isn't an apt descriptor for it.

A difference akin to the difference between Connosieur (Wines) and Wine Making.
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Old 04-27-2009, 04:03 AM   #13
Maz
 
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Default Re: [DF] Difference between Hidden Lore and Occultisme?

See my problem with a lot of the suggestions so far is that to me they just seem to assume that Hiden Lore simply gives more precise information. But isn't that just supposed to be covered by a higher skill level?

Making a new skill based on HOW you learn it rather than WHAT it learns you seem completely un-GURPS like.

They are also both IQ/A skills, the only difference beeing that Occultisme has a default (IQ-5) and Hidden lore do not.

---

I'm starting to think that Hidden Lore is a legacy from some Cthullu book from 3e that are not supposed to go together with occultisme but used in such campaigns, instead of it.

---

My questions came from the fact that DF seem to use Hidden Lore as "Monster Knowledge"-skills but still includes Occultism as a valid skill. In a world were Demons, undeads and spirits are facts of life it seem weird to me to use Hidden Lore (without any possible defaults) as a Monster Knowledge skill, as everybody knows a bit about them.



So now I consider simply merging the two skills into one. Include a Default-5 and simple put a high penalty on rolls where you want to know the name of the 7th demonlord of hell or some such precise information.
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Old 04-27-2009, 04:25 AM   #14
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Default Re: [DF] Difference between Hidden Lore and Occultisme?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz
See my problem with a lot of the suggestions so far is that to me they just seem to assume that Hiden Lore simply gives more precise information. But isn't that just supposed to be covered by a higher skill level?

Making a new skill based on HOW you learn it rather than WHAT it learns you seem completely un-GURPS like.

They are also both IQ/A skills, the only difference beeing that Occultisme has a default (IQ-5) and Hidden lore do not.

---

I'm starting to think that Hidden Lore is a legacy from some Cthullu book from 3e that are not supposed to go together with occultisme but used in such campaigns, instead of it.

---

My questions came from the fact that DF seem to use Hidden Lore as "Monster Knowledge"-skills but still includes Occultism as a valid skill. In a world were Demons, undeads and spirits are facts of life it seem weird to me to use Hidden Lore (without any possible defaults) as a Monster Knowledge skill, as everybody knows a bit about them.



So now I consider simply merging the two skills into one. Include a Default-5 and simple put a high penalty on rolls where you want to know the name of the 7th demonlord of hell or some such precise information.
Different TYPE of information. Not even a critical success with occultism will get you knowledge that the skill does not possess. Occultims deals with obscure knowables. Hidden Lore deals in things that should NOT be known at all.

It's something akin to herb lore and Alchemy. Unless you have a Gm take the trouble to make them more distinct, they overlap on lots of things. The assumption is that the Gm allows for knowlege that is out of reach of occultims that is available thourh Hidden Lore. If this is not really the case, DO NOT TAKE HIDDEN LORE!!!!
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Old 04-27-2009, 04:32 AM   #15
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Default Re: [DF] Difference between Hidden Lore and Occultisme?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain-Captain
It's something akin to herb lore and Alchemy. Unless you have a Gm take the trouble to make them more distinct, they overlap on lots of things. The assumption is that the Gm allows for knowlege that is out of reach of occultims that is available thourh Hidden Lore. If this is not really the case, DO NOT TAKE HIDDEN LORE!!!!
By this deffinition am I then wrong in assuming that DF uses hidden lroe as "monster knowledge" skills?

I could live with that, I would then just exchange almost all Hidden Lore skills in the templates with appropirate Occultism specialties instead.
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Old 04-27-2009, 04:37 AM   #16
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Default Re: [DF] Difference between Hidden Lore and Occultisme?

Delvers with Occultism can:
  • Detect curses, if there is a visible cursed object (altar, idol, etc.). (DF 2, p. 9.)
  • Analyze curses. (DF 2, p. 9.)
  • Recognize wierd monsters (like "Spawn of 'Thulhu"), adding some useful informations (favorite weapon, special power, weakness, etc.) with margin of success 2+. (DF 2, p. 9.)

Delvers with Hidden Lore (Suitable Specialty) can:
  • Recognize monsters with complex hierarchies or cultures (like demons, elementals, undead, etc.), adding some useful informations (favorite weapon, special power, weakness, etc.) with margin of success 2+. (DF 2, p. 9.)
  • Reveal disadvantages (Dread, Fragile, Revulsion, Susceptible, Uncontrollable Appetite, Vulnerability, Weakness, etc.) that the monster possesses. (DF 2, p. 10.)

Thus, indeed Occultism and Hidden Lore are both "monster knowledge" skills, but Hidden Lore can reveal monsters' weakness that adventuers can exploit more precisely. Even if a master of Occultism makes his skill roll by 10 (= five pieces of information), the GM can always choose to hide his monster's weakness by giving five pieces of non-combat information. Against a practitioner of Hidden Lore, the GM has no such countermeasure; when a delver with Hidden Lore gets a margin of success 10, the GM must tell five disadvantages.
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Old 04-27-2009, 07:02 AM   #17
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Default Re: [DF] Difference between Hidden Lore and Occultisme?

Damn this is the third my question has been answered by DF:2... I really should get around to getting that book >.<


Uhm, and thanks btw :)
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Old 04-27-2009, 08:03 AM   #18
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Default Re: [DF] Difference between Hidden Lore and Occultisme?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz
Damn this is the third my question has been answered by DF:2... I really should get around to getting that book
Just don't be too quick about applying the answers to other settings. DF kind of blurs the distinctions between Hidden Lore and Occultism IMO... presumably for the purpose of simplicity. Your original proposition ('specific' knowledge vs. 'general') seemed good to me, but remember that while a good Occultism roll might allow for more details, it won't let you know things that are not generally available to be known. That's what Hidden Lore is for... having knowledge that ordinary academics don't possess because the sources are so rare, secret, or just plain scary :|

An occultist will always have Occultism. A good one will also have some Hidden Lore. Someone who knows only Hidden Lore may not be pleasant to associate with.
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Old 04-27-2009, 09:28 AM   #19
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Default Re: [DF] Difference between Hidden Lore and Occultisme?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth
Hidden lore is hidden.
Too (un)clear things up- linguistically, the word occult means "to hide," and thus occult knowledge, or occultism, is "hidden knowledge."

For my 2c, Occultism would be the "field study" of the esoteric, what is taught about monsters, while Hidden Lore is what is taught by the monsters.
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Old 04-27-2009, 09:52 AM   #20
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Default Re: [DF] Difference between Hidden Lore and Occultisme?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daigoro
Too (un)clear things up- linguistically, the word occult means "to hide," and thus occult knowledge, or occultism, is "hidden knowledge.
Etymology is not always the friend of understanding.

Occultism and the occult in modern usage pretty firmly refer to supernatural/paranormal matters, not hidden ones as such. (Occult as an adjective is still used to mean hidden in some contexts.)
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