How can we "Fix" ST and Enhanced ST?

[the_matrix_walker]

Any suggestions?

I've been toying with a few ideas, but I'd love to get some community input.

I routinely play mostly Supers and modern games and ST is just silly over priced. Enhanced ST is really only a benefit if your game is a thousand points plus. I don't know what most people play at, but my gang usually starts a supers game at 500, (ranging as low as 350 and as high as 750) and enhanced ST is only practical if you're going over ST 50 or so, and even then your super is going to be completely exhausted in short time unless he's got cosmic and reduced fatigue.

And it becomes really apparent when you want to play a minor abilities game and say "everyone can have 50 points for powers" and you get the guy with a few limitations who can walk through walls, the guy who can turn invisible, the guy with a 10d energy blast, another guy who can control minds, and the guy who was hoping to be super strong and says "I turn my ST 13 into ST 18, I was going to buy enhanced ST, but that's actually not as strong as just 50 points in ST"

I've been pricing ST for my games at 5 points, 2 point HP, 2 point Lift, and 1 point Striking. At 10 points per 1d, that's still twice the cost of an innate attack. -- I allow Enhanced ST enhancements on Lift, but this predates Supers extra effort extending to Striking ST (which of course I could not allow with a 1 point Striking ST model)

Another idea I was playing with was to tie the cost of ST to TL. As armor improves, and materials improve, the ability to bash things in on average drops significantly.

So I just thought I'd see if anyone had any better ideas.

[RedMattis]

It doesn't really solve the ST versus IA issue, but I was looking at the whole issue of balancing attributes at various TLs.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...9&page=1&pp=10


I never really thought about ST, but now that I think about it I do believe that it is quite unbalanced in a campaign where most advantages (such as DR & IA) are allowed.

It will be interesting to see what alternate ideas for pricing will appear.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

A
And it becomes really apparent when you want to play a minor abilities game and say "everyone can have 50 points for powers" and you get the guy with a few limitations who can walk through walls, the guy who can turn invisible, the guy with a 10d energy blast, another guy who can control minds, and the guy who was hoping to be super strong and says "I turn my ST 13 into ST 18, I was going to buy enhanced ST, but that's actually not as strong as just 50 points in ST"

I've been pricing ST for my games at 5 points, 2 point HP, 2 point Lift, and 1 point Striking. At 10 points per 1d, that's still twice the cost of an innate attack. -- I allow Enhanced ST enhancements on Lift, but this predates Supers extra effort extending to Striking ST (which of course I could not allow with a 1 point Striking ST model)

I agree with most of your comments about ST particularly as regards the Supers genre.

Actually I think you're overvaluing Lifting ST. The best thing about it isn't what it allows you to lift, it's what it does for your Encumbrance levels.

Then you get a genre where your equipment list reads "spandex suit, cape, super-communicator" instead of "overly heavy plate armor, shield, 7 weapons, all the gold I can carry and a crowbar" and the value of a high Encumbrance largely disappears.

Even if you've got one of those cyber-monsters with BFGs you saw in 90s era comics the Min ST of even vaguely man-portable weapons seldom goes over 20.

So paradoxically ST just isn't as valuable to a super as it is to a dungeon-crawler or a crazed survivalist.

I tend to think Super ST needs to be priced at about 5pts per die of damage (so it's comparable to Innate attack) plus 2 pts per HP and throw the lifting in for free. Although a lot of lifting appears to go on in comics it's almost always done to be impressive and not to resolve major plot elements.

The other option is to reprice Innate Attack to be comparable to ST and just go with higher pt costs. At 500 to 750 pts I'd mostly be expecting to see Costumed Acrobats.

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Actually I think you're overvaluing Lifting ST. The best thing about it isn't what it allows you to lift, it's what it does for your Encumbrance levels.

Then you get a genre where your equipment list reads "spandex suit, cape, super-communicator" instead of "overly heavy plate armor, shield, 7 weapons, all the gold I can carry and a crowbar" and the value of a high Encumbrance largely disappears.

So paradoxically ST just isn't as valuable to a super as it is to a dungeon-crawler or a crazed survivalist.

Definitely... That's part of what got me thinking about the TL modifier. When I'm building a Fantasy character, I'm thinking less about "how much damage can I do" when I'm buying ST than "What armor can I wear?" I barely pay attention after that to my encumbrance. Can I carry it? yes? Then it goes in my pack to be dropped when it's time to fight.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I tend to think Super ST needs to be priced at about 5pts per die of damage (so it's comparable to Innate attack) plus 2 pts per HP and throw the lifting in for free. Although a lot of lifting appears to go on in comics it's almost always done to be impressive and not to resolve major plot elements.

Well, don't underestimate the usefulness of being able to move "Big Stuff"
It may not be useful in many combats, but it certainly is worth points. The "color" uses of abilities are huge in a supers game. That's part of my problem with Enhanced ST, if your team decides to help with the cleanup, and using their powers at half strength to weld patches, or control the water to flow and put out fires, or whatever, who's the guy who has to rest for an hour after putting in 10 minutes work moving debris out of the way? The ridiculously strong guy... Huh?

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The other option is to reprice Innate Attack to be comparable to ST and just go with higher pt costs. At 500 to 750 pts I'd mostly be expecting to see Costumed Acrobats.

Well sure, if innate attacks were scaled to ST prices and your 10d laser cost
500 points (plus the enhancements for ranged and impaling...) you'd see very few blasters I think.

I guess I'm going to stick to my 5 point ST until something better comes along. I just don't get why the GURPS developers think 5 points is reasonable for striking ST alone. You only get 1 point of thrust damage per 2 points of ST, and that drops to 1d per 10 with super level ST. You might say, "well you can use it for weapons" but that gives you at most 4 points of extra damage (at least I can't think of a muscle powered weapon that does more than +4)

It has no skills based on it, very few resistance rolls associated with it...
So what am I missing about striking ST that makes it worth about 8 times more expensive than a crushing innaate attack? I get that neck snaps and certain grappling situations make it count for more, but 8 times as much?

(I'm basing this 8 times multiplier on 2 points of StrST giving you 1 additional point of thrusting damage, making 8 StrST for +4, so 40points for 1d vs 5 points for 1d of innate crushing attack. It's 10 times as much if you compare it to ST over 70)

At 1 point per striking ST it is still twice the cost of a crushing innate attack, it's not ranged (unless you spend a turn to ready something to throw), but you can change your damage type to other (physical) ones with implements, you loose out on range (except when you throw of course), but you can grapple, which seems fair.

Oh and to those who want to say, well a point is too cheap because people will buy too much, well, it's still twice as expensive as innate attack, and for realistic game more than a point or two just isn't realistic and shouldn't be allowed by itself in any event.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

I just don't get why the GURPS developers think 5 points is reasonable for striking ST alone.

The analysis from people like Kromm goes something like "well, you've got this character who's a SM+3 monster who's buying St at a -30% discount who has Claws and Brawling at DX+1 and gets +2/D because of that and..." ...and actually they kind of lose me at that point. I thought I ran weird games but I've never had a PC who matched that description.

The ability to fairly easily add +2/D with Boxing and Karate shouldn't be ignored but your 10 pts/D covers that IMHO.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

"I turn my ST 13 into ST 18, I was going to buy enhanced ST, but that's actually not as strong as just 50 points in ST"

If you allow 50 points for "powers," the guy should buy ST 20 and then raise it to 25 as a "power." Basic Lift 125 lbs. and damage 2d+2/5d-1 isn't bad. Though it might be more efficient to buy Unusual Training (Power Blow), increased Will, and a high level of Power Blow. For 45 points, even without improved Will, he can get Power Blow-20, which lets him boost ST from 20 to 40 on a 15 or less after 1 second of concentration (Basic Lift 320 lbs. and damage 4d+1/7d-1). Finally, you might want instead to look at buying high Will and FP to support super-effort rolls.

Yes, it's all a bit kludgy. If you really want a cleaner system, I'd change ST from a quadratic effect to an exponential one. Say, +1 ST is x1.15 lift, +2 is x1.3, +3 is x1.5, +4 is x1.75, and +5 is x2. Then the same ST 25 would get him Basic Lift of 160 lbs.

Of course, if you let ST be bought with a power modifier, it's cheaper. Say, buy it as Biological, or Psionic (zero range telekinesis), or even Moral. ST with power modifiers is totally idiomatic for the comics.

Bill Stoddard

[Pip Boy]

I don't see any problem.

If you're the GM, just allow Extra Effort or Godlike Effort on ST (Striking and Lifting), along with Power Blow. That just might do the trick.

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by whswhs

If you allow 50 points for "powers," the guy should buy ST 20 and then raise it to 25 as a "power." Basic Lift 125 lbs. and damage 2d+2/5d-1 isn't bad. Though it might be more efficient to buy Unusual Training (Power Blow), increased Will, and a high level of Power Blow. For 45 points, even without improved Will, he can get Power Blow-20, which lets him boost ST from 20 to 40 on a 15 or less after 1 second of concentration (Basic Lift 320 lbs. and damage 4d+1/7d-1). Finally, you might want instead to look at buying high Will and FP to support super-effort rolls.

That's very specific, but not useful thematically. If I have my friends write themselves up as characters, and give em 50 extra points for powers, the guy who wants to be strong needs an extra 70 extra points to get to 20 in the first place. Power Blow as you pointed out, takes an extra second of concentration, and after all that, he's punching for 4d and the blaster is firing off 10d shots at guys all around the battlefield.

Originally Posted by whswhs

Yes, it's all a bit kludgy. If you really want a cleaner system, I'd change ST from a quadratic effect to an exponential one. Say, +1 ST is x1.15 lift, +2 is x1.3, +3 is x1.5, +4 is x1.75, and +5 is x2. Then the same ST 25 would get him Basic Lift of 160 lbs.

That doesn't impact the biggest problem, the ridiculous cost of striking ST and it doesn't explain where ST 13 guy got the extra 70 points to get his ST to 20 in the first place. Really it's not the lifting ST that is so bothersome to me.

Originally Posted by whswhs

Of course, if you let ST be bought with a power modifier, it's cheaper. Say, buy it as Biological, or Psionic (zero range telekinesis), or even Moral. ST with power modifiers is totally idiomatic for the comics.

I don't see how taking limitations should enter into the discussion. Anything you buy with a power modifier would be cheaper. Power modifiers are likely to be on all powers if they're in use and all things are equal.

I appreciate your effort for a workaround, but Bill, you're a developer! Can you let me in on why it is the way it is and we need the workaround in the first place? At some point while writing the Basic Set someone must have pointed out that striking st was 10 times as expensive as an equivalent innate attack...

Originally Posted by Pip Boy

I don't see any problem.

If you're the GM, just allow Extra Effort or Godlike Effort on ST (Striking and Lifting), along with Power Blow. That just might do the trick.

For clarity, I'm talking about what I think is a real problem with the mechanics here, not a specific game.

But as most powers don't require fatigue to routinely use, I don't think that "throw fatigue at it, take an extra turn of concentration and make extra rolls" is a good solution.

[Bruno]

I'm personally of the mind that HP and Lifting ST are pretty fairly priced. This doesn't leave much room for the Striking ST part of the attribute to be adjusted...

Speaking as someone playing a ST 20, Striking ST 21, HP 30 SM +1 character in a Dungeon Fantasy TL3ish game, my character is quite possibly abusively good. Hitpoints are definitely well priced - I get fabulous value for point cost on them.

Allowing ST in the 10-20 range to do more damage is, IMO, a very bad idea. It means that characters who are in the human normal range[1] are doing more damage punching other characters than they would with handguns. Give him a two handed weapon, and he can gain two whole dice of damage plus the usual weapon bonuses (which go up to +5 for two handed polearms) and start whacking people for as much damage as a rifle shot. Give him a sling, and he does that sort of damage at a rather good range.

In general, I'm thinking the strength-based damage chart in the 10-20 range is pretty well calibrated, and the prices are good. How damage progresses out of that range could be changed, but changing how it works within that range because you want your big ST 14 friend to be super strong for 50 points is I think a very bad plan. It's going to cause unexpected effects elsewhere for non-super people - ST 14 + 5 guy may feel like he's super-strong, until he runs into a thug on steroids who has ST 16-18 and is almost as strong without having any super powers.

If one of the guys put that 50 points into DX, he doesn't even get +3 to DX. Core attributes in the middle area of the attribute range don't get the immediate "ooh ah" effect of spending equivalent points on an advantage, which is quite specialized. Although I note that Mr. Invisible is invisible all the dang time, which is not quite as cool as it sounds IMO. Tends to result in Blaster Man accidentally shooting him on a regular basis, for example.

I'd also strongly recommend the Powers advice of charging an Unusual Background for people who can deal out more damage than an equivalent hand weapon of your TL - at TL 8 that's handguns or possibly rifles depending on your campaign. This includes Super Strong people as much as Mr Blaster. I also charge it for super speedsters that can Slam for huge piles of damage, and other folks who have indirectly found ways of dealing huge gobs of damage: Teleporting huge weights over peoples heads, or buying telekinesis (lifting only) to hover cars over people and drop them, as two examples.

[1] I know the stat normalists don't like seeing 20s, but I've seen enough folks poking at Olympic weightlifters and the lifting rules getting numbers in the 18-23 range that I'm convinced that human ST can naturally reach the high teens end with good conditions (childhood nutrition, training, good genetics...). It may be RARE, but it's not fantastic.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

I don't see how taking limitations should enter into the discussion. Anything you buy with a power modifier would be cheaper. Power modifiers are likely to be on all powers if they're in use and all things are equal.

Making it cheaper means that it's cheap without a power modifier and that the power modifier gets you LESS of a discount (ie less points to spend on more Strength), making LESS of a difference between Mr. Super and some dude who works out.

Which means Roy Drage, the jerk at the bar who isn't super at all and is causing trouble for the PCs, can have a lot of Strength easily. Or one of the other PCs could start working out and buy up his perfectly normal Strength into a range that makes buddy with 50 points in super-power strength look rather un-special and normal ST guy is paying only 55-ish points for it, or is only a point or two behind Mr. Super.