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Old 05-18-2010, 05:53 PM   #41
trooper6
 
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Default Re: Rapid Healing and Regeneration

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Well, certainly there's no need to worry about comparison if one of them isn't on the table at all.

Except that it makes it pretty clear that one of those costs is just not right. As has been otherwise established up-thread.
Depends on how you look at it.

In a world where you are a normal human, Very Rapid Healing should cost a lot. Because it would be a rare and costly thing. The cost of Regeneration is not important, because it isn't relevant.

In a world where most people are normal humans, Very Rapid Healing is still the proper cost. If some people can be supernaturals and get access to Regeneration, they are probably also paying an Unusual Background cost which balances things out.

In a world where everyone is a crazy super people will probably buying lots of Innate Attacks and Regeneration and all sorts of other things. They may not buy Very Rapid Healing. But that doesn't mean the cost is off.

There are game worlds where bulletproof nudity is the rule of the game. There are others with all sorts of extra bleeding rules. Not everything has the same value in every campaign. If you never do anything social, then the social advantages may be overpriced in your campaign. But that is a function of your campaign, not of the pricing for the social advantage.

I'm pretty sure I could make an Innate Attack that would be cheaper than an equivalent weapon bought with Signature Gear. That doesn't mean the pricing is off. It just means that we are looking at two different sorts of things that are appropriate in different sorts of campaign worlds.

GURPS has diversity.

If you think VRH isn't worth if for you, and you have access to Regeneration, then take Regeneration. In other campaigns people will be making other choices.
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Old 05-18-2010, 06:21 PM   #42
Vaevictis Asmadi
 
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Default Re: Rapid Healing and Regeneration

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Originally Posted by Edges View Post
A +5 to HP recovery rolls improves your chance of getting a critical success. This makes it more likely to heal 4 HP in a day with VRH than with Regeneration (slow).
Regeneration includes Rapid Healing at no extra cost. It includes the exact same +5 benefit.


And as stated on the many other threads about this topic, things in 4E are supposed to cost what they cost and be priced on a single scale. Exotic is not supposed to "balance" higher cost and in fact doesn't help at all.

If the character or race concept includes a specific trait, that trait should have a reasonable cost relative to other traits. It doesn't bother me because my inner munchkin feels cheated. It bothers me because my inner world builder can't adequately model racial and character concepts with badly designed traits that don't add up properly. If I only cared about min-maxing my superhero PC, I wouldn't have brought this up.
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Old 05-18-2010, 08:32 PM   #43
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Default Re: Rapid Healing and Regeneration

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Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
It did, Compendium I lists it. Supers may be the original source. I remember earlier discussions, probably on GURPSnet, about the same issue [VRH vs. SlowRegen.].
I guess I recalled INcorrectly then.
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Old 05-19-2010, 12:26 AM   #44
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Default Re: Rapid Healing and Regeneration

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Originally Posted by trooper6 View Post
In a world where you are a normal human, Very Rapid Healing should cost a lot. Because it would be a rare and costly thing. The cost of Regeneration is not important, because it isn't relevant.

In a world where most people are normal humans, Very Rapid Healing is still the proper cost. If some people can be supernaturals and get access to Regeneration, they are probably also paying an Unusual Background cost which balances things out.

In a world where everyone is a crazy super people will probably buying lots of Innate Attacks and Regeneration and all sorts of other things. They may not buy Very Rapid Healing. But that doesn't mean the cost is off.
That sounds like a classic argument for Unusual Background. Why not simply get rid of Very Rapid Healing, allow "mortal" characters to take Slow Regeneration, and slap a 5 point unusual background on it?
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Old 05-19-2010, 12:37 AM   #45
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Default Re: Rapid Healing and Regeneration

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Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
That sounds like a classic argument for Unusual Background. Why not simply get rid of Very Rapid Healing, allow "mortal" characters to take Slow Regeneration, and slap a 5 point unusual background on it?
Because Very Rapid Healing is a realistic advantage and Regeneration is not. As a GM, when I'm running a game where the humans are realistic humans, I'm not going to allow the players to pick up Regeneration with a UB in the same way I wouldn't let them shoot lasers out of their eyes with a UB. Humans can't do those things. So they can't get it, not even with a UB. That leaves them the option of Rapid Healing or Very Rapid Healing.
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Old 05-19-2010, 01:25 AM   #46
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Default Re: Rapid Healing and Regeneration

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Originally Posted by trooper6 View Post
Depends on how you look at it.

In a world where you are a normal human, Very Rapid Healing should cost a lot. Because it would be a rare and costly thing. The cost of Regeneration is not important, because it isn't relevant.
Woah, there.

Rare doesn't matter. Advantages are not priced on rarity.

Costly doesn't even make sense. Very Rapid Healing isn't 'costly' in most mundane worlds, because there's no way to buy it.

And the cost of regeneration isn't relevant...except that it's the right price for that capability. Which is what point costs are supposed to be based on. Whether people are allowed to buy it or not doesn't change that.
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Old 05-19-2010, 02:00 AM   #47
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Default Re: Rapid Healing and Regeneration

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Originally Posted by trooper6 View Post
Because Very Rapid Healing is a realistic advantage and Regeneration is not. As a GM, when I'm running a game where the humans are realistic humans, I'm not going to allow the players to pick up Regeneration with a UB in the same way I wouldn't let them shoot lasers out of their eyes with a UB. Humans can't do those things. So they can't get it, not even with a UB. That leaves them the option of Rapid Healing or Very Rapid Healing.
The Unusual Background cost makes it mundane. A DR of 1 or 2 is perfectly reasonable as well, but it's rare for normal humans to have, so you slap them with a UB cost. So is a cinematic skill here and there provided you paid the Perk "Special Exercise" point for it. That's one of the points of Unusual Background: to make something that normally would not be allowed (for whatever reason), available to a character (via whatever interpretation).

Arguably, Slow Regeneration is perfectly valid for mundane characters, it's just "rare," and so we require that they purchase it with a UB cost.
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Old 05-19-2010, 09:04 AM   #48
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Default Re: Rapid Healing and Regeneration

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Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
The Unusual Background cost makes it mundane. A DR of 1 or 2 is perfectly reasonable as well, but it's rare for normal humans to have, so you slap them with a UB cost. So is a cinematic skill here and there provided you paid the Perk "Special Exercise" point for it. That's one of the points of Unusual Background: to make something that normally would not be allowed (for whatever reason), available to a character (via whatever interpretation).

Arguably, Slow Regeneration is perfectly valid for mundane characters, it's just "rare," and so we require that they purchase it with a UB cost.
Unusual Background doesn't make something mundane. It makes you able to purchase something not normally available. Using UB to be able to have the Flight power doesn't make the Flight power mundane.

Also, UBs must be approved by the GM. And I'm telling you that when I'm running a game where the players are normal humans, I'm not approving a UB that allows exotic or supernatural advantages.

Just because it is in the book doesn't mean the players get to have access to it.
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Old 05-19-2010, 09:07 AM   #49
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Default Re: Rapid Healing and Regeneration

What if the writeup for Regeneration (Slow) specifically mentioned 'If you add a five-point unusual background, this advantage should be considered mundane'?
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Old 05-19-2010, 09:36 AM   #50
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Default Re: Rapid Healing and Regeneration

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Originally Posted by Langy View Post
What if the writeup for Regeneration (Slow) specifically mentioned 'If you add a five-point unusual background, this advantage should be considered mundane'?

1. But the writeup for Regeneration doesn't say that. If we get into hypotheticals you ask what if Warp mentioned in the write up that it could be considered mundane with an unusual background cost.

2. The write up for UB notes that GM's have to approve UBs. So just having the phrase you mentioned in the write up doesn't guarantee that a GM has to accept it.

3. I also don't allow any old mundane thing in my games either. I review every character sheet, and things that don't make sense, either for the character concept as presented, or the campaign concept, aren't allowed. If the campaign is that everyone is a rookie cop, no one is playing a mob boss. Not even with a UB. I was once running a cyberpunk campaign and one of the players wanted to play a fae cast out of arcadia a la Changeling...who, because he wasn't human, had no sympathy towards them and was a sociopath. She was willing to play as many points UB as I asked. The answer? No. Because there were no fae and no Arcadia in that c-punk world. UB wasn't going to change that.

The Basic set is very clear that you have to get GM's okay on things...even mundane things. B33 when discussing mundane advantages says: "Mundane advantages are inborn or leaned edges and knacks that anyone might have. There are normally no restrictions on who may possess a mundane advantage. Mundane advantages are not specifically marked--if you don't see [exotic] or [supernatura], the advantage is mundane and available to anyone with the GM's permission. This last point is important!"

I don't run D&D style games where I say, "go make a 150 adventurer, its a fantasy game, we start tomorrow." Then end up with a loner werewolf, an Honest/Truthful Baker, and Sadistic Assassin. I run games with campaign frames/concepts. And that means I vet characters before they come into play. And if the trait is inappropriate for the campaign, the PC doesn't have it, UB or no.
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