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Old 11-24-2008, 10:57 PM   #21
nik1979
 
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Default Re: Criticism for my Plot Point System? Please.

This system, despite its age, it is very useful.

one criticism I would place is that the players need not roll anymore. Spending and Rolling, doesn't make it so Fate-ish when a critical failure will take away the fate-based powers of these points away from the PCs. and If a +10 will result to a near certain success, just make it so instead of having a roll as a middle man.

I suggest you have rules in place that reduce the amount of rolls, this system would be doubly useful.


I've used a similar system and opted for a simplified solution, as I have ascribed in my criticism. In my suggestion, I give my latest amendments because I use average damage (modified by margin of success), use a mook system*, and allow players to automatically "save" vs going down or dying instantly with the points.

*where as I don't roll HT for mooks and depending on the challenge I want to present, let them automatically succeed or fail.
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Old 11-25-2008, 12:11 PM   #22
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Default Re: Criticism for my Fate Point System? Please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedMattis
(...) Character Points can be spent Fate Points.
These things can be done with the Fate Points:

Fate Point Spending

Heroic Feats

Aegis of the Plot

Plots Twists
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randover
(...) So how does Plot points work with magic?

I personaly as a mage-player would protest a little because other characters have gained limited cinemmatic ability and that makes my magic less special (Imbalaced).
I'm searching for a good "Fate Point" system for GURPS, too. Seeing this, RedMattis, I would ask not only for Magic -as Randover points-, but about many more non-combat features of the game and/or plot.

Excepting Plot Twists, I would like to see how this work with things as Reaction Rolls, Fatigue points, Fright or Awe Checks, Will increases-decreases in particular situations... and whatever not directly related with combat nor with the physical capabilities of the characters (stuff already well covered under Heroic Feats and Aegis of the Plot).

Putting it in another way, Plots Twists section seems a bit scarce in content for a role playing game featuring not only combat situations. Don't you think?

I'm aware the "combat" aspect -along with its rules- of a role playing game system is the easier to quantify, but still I think this deserves a thought.
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Old 11-25-2008, 10:17 PM   #23
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Default Re: Criticism for my Fate Point System? Please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by demonsbane
I'm searching for a good "Fate Point" system for GURPS, too. Seeing this, RedMattis, I would ask not only for Magic -as Randover points-, but about many more non-combat features of the game and/or plot.
I'll get right on to that when I've got the time. I am a bit busy moving to a new apartment, but once that is handled I'll have some spare-time to work on the Fate Point system. :)
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Old 11-26-2008, 01:42 AM   #24
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Default Re: Criticism for my Plot Point System? Please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedMattis
Even if this was not a problem few players really like spending their hard earned character points to get plot lucky. Character points are like metaphorical chocolate money, eating it might be good and tasty, but many would regret it later. Makes for a bad mood when spending Cinematic Points. For some people.

As suggested various advantages can give a character some Plot Power, but frankly, unless greatly limited it will feel more like a Plot Super-Power than Plot Protection. It is to much work and not quite worth it in my opinion.
What I am doing is not giving the players Advantages, I am giving them the option to trade extra Character Points for special Character Points which can be spent only for Cinematic Effects
Well - good points - but how is your system different? I mean if the "red" points can be hoarded spending them still means you cannot spend them later - so there's still that "chocolate money" effect (maybe not so bad though as the points could not be spend on staying abilities..). And getting +10 to a roll with a point is quite much like "plot superpower". You might want to set some maximum to how many points can be accumulated. But then it would basicly be a superluck that uses some sort of energy reserve.
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Old 02-07-2009, 10:21 AM   #25
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Default Re: Criticism for my Fate Point System? Please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by demonsbane
I'm searching for a good "Fate Point" system for GURPS, too. Seeing this, RedMattis, I would ask not only for Magic -as Randover points-, but about many more non-combat features of the game and/or plot.
Alright. I'll try to look over Fate Points and magic.
I think I will try inventing a variation of Heroic Effort and Lucky Shot for extended actions.


Quote:
Excepting Plot Twists, I would like to see how this work with things as Reaction Rolls, Fatigue points, Fright or Awe Checks, Will increases-decreases in particular situations... and whatever not directly related with combat nor with the physical capabilities of the characters (stuff already well covered under Heroic Feats and Aegis of the Plot).
My players have yet to try using them for reaction rolls, but I believe Heroic Effort and Lucky Short should work fine here too. After all. Reaction Rolls are typically only made when there is no predetermined reaction.

I'll try to see if there is any good way to alter predetermined reactions. I have a few ideas.

The system already works for Fright Checks and such. Failing a Fright Check is no different from failing a check for unconsciousness or a HT roll to resist an affliction/disease.

I'll try to create something like the "Fury" Feat for increasing other attributes.


Quote:
Putting it in another way, Plots Twists section seems a bit scarce in content for a role playing game featuring not only combat situations. Don't you think?
It could use some more options. Perhaps. So far I've based it on existing GURPS advantages (Serendipity and Contact for Serendipity, and Gizmo for... Gizmo).

Quote:
I'm aware the "combat" aspect -along with its rules- of a role playing game system is the easier to quantify, but still I think this deserves a thought.
The so called 'combat' feats are to be used for all situations. Heroic Effort or Lucky Shot can be used to save that one important Fast-Talk roll, or to turn the Sex Appeal roll for hitting on that girl by the bar into a critical success.
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Old 02-07-2009, 10:26 AM   #26
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Default Re: Criticism for my Plot Point System? Please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAW
Well - good points - but how is your system different? I mean if the "red" points can be hoarded spending them still means you cannot spend them later - so there's still that "chocolate money" effect (maybe not so bad though as the points could not be spend on staying abilities..). And getting +10 to a roll with a point is quite much like "plot superpower". You might want to set some maximum to how many points can be accumulated. But then it would basicly be a superluck that uses some sort of energy reserve.
The big difference is that the Fate Points can't be used to improve your character permenantly, which does a bit to discourage saving the Fate Points, making everyone spend more of them.

In some settings you don't want your heroes to sit around saving their precious character points to improve themselves for the later challenges, or save themselves from the Big Bad at the end. You want them to use Character Points (or rather, Fate Points) to jump out through the window on the second floor, land on their feet grab a gun just lying on the hood of the car outside and charge after the man who just recently tried to shot their character's girlfriend through her bedroom window.

Edit: Que Character theme song there of course. ;)
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Old 02-07-2009, 11:21 AM   #27
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Default Re: Criticism for my Plot Point System? Please.

It doesn't sound flexible. You're re-introducing character classes, basically, and you're worse than AD&D because you offer only two character classes. Even GURPS offers four, which is bad enough.

Why not create a Plot Point advantage?

Costing 10 CPs per level, and giving one Plot Point per session per level? That way, you'll get actual flexibility, because each player becomes free to choose how many Plot Points to buy.

Or 8 CPs per Plot Point per session, or 15 CPs, depending on what you think is balanced.
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Old 02-07-2009, 11:51 AM   #28
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Default Re: Criticism for my Plot Point System? Please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen
It doesn't sound flexible. You're re-introducing character classes, basically, and you're worse than AD&D because you offer only two character classes. Even GURPS offers four, which is bad enough.
No... I'm not introducing character classes, I'm introducing two different point budgets, and you can do whatever you please with them. Don't let the names I gave them fool you. ;)

Heroes at 1x starting points.

Specialists at 1,66...x starting points. + more Plot Points.


Quote:
Why not create a Plot Point advantage?

Costing 10 CPs per level, and giving one Plot Point per session per level? That way, you'll get actual flexibility, because each player becomes free to choose how many Plot Points to buy.

Or 8 CPs per Plot Point per session, or 15 CPs, depending on what you think is balanced.
I am not designing Plot Points to scale with character points though. They are Deus ex Machina Points, and I'm not planning to have their value static no matter the character point value. (I'll post some ideas about how to do "stunts" such as boosting an advantage by a % when I've figured out the mechanics and balanced them between to the other options. Troublesome to do with a fixed cost advantage)
They are easier to balance by saying:

Character type A can manipulate a plot a few times per session.

Character type B can barely manipulate the plot, but is more powerful.

I know by practice that both types satisfy the players. One let's them do their heroic stunts, the other let's them be full-time badass at what they do, but less capable of death/odds defying stunts, and surviving near-impossible situations.

I prefer it that way :)
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Old 02-07-2009, 10:43 PM   #29
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Default Re: Criticism for my Plot Point System? Please.

The only problem I see with this system is when it's going to be used by actual players. ;)
In my experience, with a system such as this that allow for players to hoard some sort of "points" that give them a bonus in combat, they tend to do exactly that...hoard. Until the "end fight" at which point they throw EVERYTHING in the ring, reducing an epic fight to a walk in the park. Subsequencly because of this players might have extreme difficulties with encounters that was supposed to be fairly straight forward had they just used a few points.


The problem comes when you as a GM then have to take these fate points into account. Do you design it so they have to use their points or not? If you do how do you convice them they need to use them, if not have do you convince them not to? This is only a problem because of the offensive capabiltities. Defensive is not a problem, because after all, we want the PC's to survive, right?

I don't know what setting you are planning on, but I just know a few of my players would hoard them until they meet a big bad and then spend a few points to make "automatic critical hit to the eye" ending the battle before it starts. And if you then take means to counter this you end up with the FinalFantasy-thrope where all super weaposn can not be used in boss fights and not worth using on normal fights, rendering them useless.

---

I would suggest that you either remove the offensive potentials of them (+10/+5 to a skill). Or that you make different tyeps of fate points, where the ones that can be used offensive can not be hoarded (not even for the normal heroes).

And in any case I think only 1FP for an automatic critical succes (+10 is pretty much that) is way too cheap compared especially to the Plot Twist.


---

I really like them as a defensive system and as a way to give the players more influence on the plot and story... do you know Burning Wheels? And their Artha system?

Last edited by Maz; 02-07-2009 at 10:50 PM.
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Old 02-08-2009, 12:40 AM   #30
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Default Re: Criticism for my Plot Point System? Please.

Ok I just had to add a bit more, sorry for double posting. But I had to comment a bit more specific on the different uses of the fate points. :)



Heroic Feats.
Heroic effort and Lucky shot are the ones I really don't like. They bring way too much uncertainty to the table, both for players and for the GM. When do you invision they should be used?

As I see it they only bring problem. They will constantly create situations where the players will either have too easy a time or too hard because they where supposed to use points. In fact creating situations where they have to use points is in itself just a bad idea now that I think about it, because then why deal them out in the first place if one just create situations for them to be spendt, so they can't be used when the players want to?

I would rather suggest the ability to reroll or simply suceed on a test (if it could be succeeded within the players skill in the first place). This keeps things more predictable and easier for everyone to handle while still giving a clear benefit. You as the GM doesn't have to take into account a possible +15 to all the players skills (and untrained skills?).


The fury I like but I would personally require a "Very ‘good’ provocation" instead of giving a discount if you got it. This way it will not simply be a munckins bonus to the odd fight but something you use when apropriate: when your loved ones are in danger or you fight your nemisis or some such.



Aegis of the Plot
In general I Like those...as they are purely defensive. However I think they are a bit overcomplicated.
Instead of your Flesh wound rule I would just use the "just a flesh wound" rule reducing any damage to 1 (after any DR). Also saves calculations. As a requirement I would have the player explain exactly how they avoid the damage.

Not Quite Dead and Deus ex Machina I would roll together as one as they are both about the same: cheating death. So I would just keep it to being able to pass a deathcheck automaticly. Also personally I don't like the guaranty against death that Deus Ex can give you as it removes tension. However I do like it as a way to escape something horrible. Or at least reduce it to something less horrible.
Back from the Grave I would remove as I don't really see a point of it. How could a player ever afort to pay 5-15 fate points to get back to life, if they hadn't got enough points to avoid death using any of the others in the first place? If thye are reduced to -5xHP there need to be some sort of magic or superscience to bring them back anyway, and then fate points seems a bit redundant.


The Plot twist I really really like :)

---


So, in the end. I would have it be:

Lucky! [1 pt] You may reroll a roll twice and take the best result.

One in a million chance [3 pts] You automaticly suceed a roll, if it was possible (that is, your effective skill was 3 or above).

Fury [3 pts] As yours, but require a very good motivation (yourself being in mortal danger is not enough).

Flesh wound [1 pt] Reduce any damage taken (after all modifiers and DR) to 1. The player is required to explain how he escapes the damage. This also works against multiple hits from the same source in the same turn; getting hit by a burst of 3 shots from the same machinegun for instance (but not 3 single shtos from 3 different shooters).

Not quite dead [1 pt] You automaticly succeeds a Death roll.

Deus Ex Machina [2 pts] IF in a horrible situation you can use this to change it to a less horrible one. For instance if being pushed into a volcano you could use DeuEx to change the 'falling into lava' to 'getting a grip on the edge of the volcana, slowly slipping'. Or if you have your weapon blow up it could just be jammed. Or if a rocket hits your car blowing it (and you) up it might just glance it puncturing the tiers and only giving you superficial burns...but stil rendering you immobile, and so on. Stole from burning Wheels (it should complicate things and not just completely avoid the disaster).

Plot twist Same as yours. Did I mention I really like yours? :)


...if you wanted more options, epsecially for combat, you could add in stuff like "Do maximum damage", "Half enemy DR", "let the enemy critically fail his hit", "let the enemies weapon jam" and other stuff that would normally require a critical hit/failure.

I would maybe also add the following:
Grit your teeth [2 pt] You are able to stay concious no matter what, in order to complete a certain task... for instance, carry a loved one to safety or get to the engine room and turn of the self destruct, or hold off the horde of orcs until your friends get away. To simple be able to keep fighting is not motivation enough (maybe if you are the last one on your feet and surrender is not an option, also, see below).

Second Wind [1 pt] No matter the injuries you are able to get back up on your feet. Even after failing an Unconcious roll you can use this to get back up again. This is the typical action hero thing to do. GM might rule that you have to declare you use it as soon as you fail your roll, but that you do not have to get back up until you decide (meaning that the enemies will think you fallen, not attacking you any further, until you get back up). Further activity might requrie new rolls to avoid falling back again, but, see above. ;)

Last edited by Maz; 02-08-2009 at 01:00 AM.
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