Uploading, Ghosts, SAI's...

Kitsune · 04-01-2005, 06:21 PM

Would you have yourself uploaded through the process described in THS if you lived in 2100?

Sam Cade · 04-01-2005, 06:35 PM

Destructive uploading?
Hell No.

Kitsune · 04-02-2005, 01:08 AM

Yeah, into whatever cybershell you want. Price is not an issue. Vastly superior to the original (no offense). Would you do it?

Malenfant · 04-02-2005, 01:49 AM

When TS came out, I'd have said "YES!" without a thought.

Now, having thought about this destructive uploading part more, I'm not so sure. I'm not too keen on the thought of dying, see - while the copy that's made may think exactly like me, it's not necessarily actually me.

Still, if the end drew near, then I'd probably throw caution to the wind. At worst, I'd be dying either way. At best, I live on, with cool new bodies or virtual playgrounds to occupy :).

Sam Baughn · 04-02-2005, 03:08 AM

Only if there was something wrong with my current body. Throwing away a perfectly good body just so that you can get the latest model seems wasteful to me. On the other hand, if there was any good reason to do it, I wouldn't hesitate.

thtraveller · 04-02-2005, 06:35 AM

I am of the same mind as Perfect Organism. No qualms about doing it when the when the time comes.

What shell will I wear today? My job interview shell, my bedtime shell, my athletic shell? ;-) Would there even be timeshare on exotic shells?

I wonder if there would be some who do it just to get their perfect body or if some would be pushed into it because their predicted ongoing medical care would cost more than ghosting and starting with a new shell.

Kitsune · 04-02-2005, 02:58 PM

Hmmm...so most of you would. But what about this (somewhat solipsist) reasoning:
Uploading is suicide. Nothing more. You die. The only thing uploading is good for, is to give You the consoling illusion that You would live on. But You don't. Because the ghost is not You. It's an facsimile, a copy at best. That the ghost himself believes that it is You, doesn't help You. It's a different somebody, a different "me"-sphere. But You Yourself just get Your brain destroyed. And that means death. And if You die, the universe dies (from Your point of view, but since that's the only point of view You have, can have, that doesn't make a difference), so everything after Your death is of no concern to You. That includes the existence of an computer program that claims to be You.
And therefore uploading makes no sense at all.

Do you agree or disagree?

Nelson Cunnington · 04-02-2005, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Hmmm...so most of you would. But what about this (somewhat solipsist) reasoning:
Uploading is suicide. Nothing more. You die.

But how would you know that that was true? Consider this: a friend of yours gets uploaded. You've known this person since the twentieth century, you're really good friends, you know things about him that no-one else knows. After he gets uploaded, you can't tell the difference. He's still your friend, he knows the stuff you know about him, he reacts the same way to most things as you remember, he still loves and hates and is indifferent to the same people and things as he used to. To all intents and purposes, this is the same person, albeit in a different body.

So the time comes for you to make up your mind about either going into nanostasis for a century or so while the medical scientists figure out how to cure your condition, or getting yourself uploaded. Now, you know from experience that your uploaded friend is the same as he ever was -- except that maybe he takes mortality a little less seriously these days -- so why shouldn't you take the upload option? It doesn't seem to make any difference, so why not? A difference that makes no difference is no difference.

Sam Baughn · 04-02-2005, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Hmmm...so most of you would. But what about this (somewhat solipsist) reasoning:
Uploading is suicide. Nothing more. You die. The only thing uploading is good for, is to give You the consoling illusion that You would live on. But You don't. Because the ghost is not You. It's an facsimile, a copy at best. That the ghost himself believes that it is You, doesn't help You. It's a different somebody, a different "me"-sphere. But You Yourself just get Your brain destroyed. And that means death. And if You die, the universe dies (from Your point of view, but since that's the only point of view You have, can have, that doesn't make a difference), so everything after Your death is of no concern to You. That includes the existence of an computer program that claims to be You.
And therefore uploading makes no sense at all.

Do you agree or disagree?

I disagree. If you woke up tomorrow and someone had replaced your brain with an exact replica of your brain, would you seriously believe that the person who woke up was a different person to the one who went to sleep?

Kitsune · 04-02-2005, 04:52 PM

Consider this:

During the uploading-process the brain is scanned and analysed.
The trick to make you believe that the uploaded person is you, works because the original is destroyed in the process. Assume someone would develop a method to analyse your brain WITHOUT destroying it. A ghost could be created simply through scanning, leaving your brain unharmed. If that would work, and someone would create a ghost of you, download it into a bioshell which looks like you do (waiting in another room), and this bioshell meets your friend (let's say in the waitingroom where he is waiting while you are uploaded) your friend would think that this is you, right? Cause the double has all of your memories. Actually the bioshell + ghost would believe that he is you, and that everything is in order. But you, the original you, are still alive (and still in the uploading room, putting your cloth back on).
Let's assume, that, after the sucessful uploading, the doctor supervising the process lies to you by saying that the uploading process had not worked and had to be discontinued, while actually your doppleganger is around and about, would you know it? No. And at the same time the nurse lies to the ghost, that the uploading was destructive (which it wasn't) and that the brain of the original was destroyed. Would he know that you are still alive? No. If somone would flatten the thumb of this bioshell/ghost double of yourself with a hammer...would you feel the pain? No! Neither if it is the other way round. Both are different persons. Two individuals, how much they may look alike.
Facit: You do not live on in your ghost. However, the delusion that you would may be a consolation for you, before you die.

Do you still disagree? :)

04-01-2005, 06:21 PM	#1
Kitsune Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: At the Stern, Raising the Black	Uploading, Ghosts, SAI's... Would you have yourself uploaded through the process described in THS if you lived in 2100?

04-01-2005, 06:35 PM	#2
Sam Cade Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Down in a holler	Re: Uploading, Ghosts, SAI's... Destructive uploading? Hell No.

04-02-2005, 01:08 AM	#3
Kitsune Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: At the Stern, Raising the Black	Re: Uploading, Ghosts, SAI's... Yeah, into whatever cybershell you want. Price is not an issue. Vastly superior to the original (no offense). Would you do it?

04-02-2005, 01:49 AM	#4
Malenfant Join Date: Oct 2004	Re: Uploading, Ghosts, SAI's... When TS came out, I'd have said "YES!" without a thought. Now, having thought about this destructive uploading part more, I'm not so sure. I'm not too keen on the thought of dying, see - while the copy that's made may think exactly like me, it's not necessarily actually me. Still, if the end drew near, then I'd probably throw caution to the wind. At worst, I'd be dying either way. At best, I live on, with cool new bodies or virtual playgrounds to occupy :).

04-02-2005, 03:08 AM	#5
Sam Baughn Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: United Kingdom of Great Britain and some other bits.	Re: Uploading, Ghosts, SAI's... Only if there was something wrong with my current body. Throwing away a perfectly good body just so that you can get the latest model seems wasteful to me. On the other hand, if there was any good reason to do it, I wouldn't hesitate. __________________ My blog.

04-02-2005, 06:35 AM	#6
thtraveller Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Manchester, UK	Re: Uploading, Ghosts, SAI's... I am of the same mind as Perfect Organism. No qualms about doing it when the when the time comes. What shell will I wear today? My job interview shell, my bedtime shell, my athletic shell? ;-) Would there even be timeshare on exotic shells? I wonder if there would be some who do it just to get their perfect body or if some would be pushed into it because their predicted ongoing medical care would cost more than ghosting and starting with a new shell.

04-02-2005, 02:58 PM	#7
Kitsune Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: At the Stern, Raising the Black	Re: Uploading, Ghosts, SAI's... Hmmm...so most of you would. But what about this (somewhat solipsist) reasoning: Uploading is suicide. Nothing more. You die. The only thing uploading is good for, is to give You the consoling illusion that You would live on. But You don't. Because the ghost is not You. It's an facsimile, a copy at best. That the ghost himself believes that it is You, doesn't help You. It's a different somebody, a different "me"-sphere. But You Yourself just get Your brain destroyed. And that means death. And if You die, the universe dies (from Your point of view, but since that's the only point of view You have, can have, that doesn't make a difference), so everything after Your death is of no concern to You. That includes the existence of an computer program that claims to be You. And therefore uploading makes no sense at all. Do you agree or disagree?

04-02-2005, 04:52 PM	#10
Kitsune Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: At the Stern, Raising the Black	Re: Uploading, Ghosts, SAI's... Consider this: During the uploading-process the brain is scanned and analysed. The trick to make you believe that the uploaded person is you, works because the original is destroyed in the process. Assume someone would develop a method to analyse your brain WITHOUT destroying it. A ghost could be created simply through scanning, leaving your brain unharmed. If that would work, and someone would create a ghost of you, download it into a bioshell which looks like you do (waiting in another room), and this bioshell meets your friend (let's say in the waitingroom where he is waiting while you are uploaded) your friend would think that this is you, right? Cause the double has all of your memories. Actually the bioshell + ghost would believe that he is you, and that everything is in order. But you, the original you, are still alive (and still in the uploading room, putting your cloth back on). Let's assume, that, after the sucessful uploading, the doctor supervising the process lies to you by saying that the uploading process had not worked and had to be discontinued, while actually your doppleganger is around and about, would you know it? No. And at the same time the nurse lies to the ghost, that the uploading was destructive (which it wasn't) and that the brain of the original was destroyed. Would he know that you are still alive? No. If somone would flatten the thumb of this bioshell/ghost double of yourself with a hammer...would you feel the pain? No! Neither if it is the other way round. Both are different persons. Two individuals, how much they may look alike. Facit: You do not live on in your ghost. However, the delusion that you would may be a consolation for you, before you die. Do you still disagree? :) __________________ "I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly because you tread on my dreams." Last edited by Kitsune; 04-02-2005 at 05:01 PM.