Shotguns

[Rupert]

I was looking at the shotgun rules, and a couple of things struck me as odd and/or unreasonable.

1. Short range damage - at 10% of 1/2D range and under damage is equal to that of half the total pellets. This doesn't sound too bad straight off - 4d+4 for a 12G. However, when you look more closely it's more like 4d+4 (0.25) pi-, so at 5 yards and under a 12 gauge shotgun is like a 9mm pistol, but doesn't penetrate as well. This is just wrong for a weapon that's supposed to be the ultimate close combat weapon (in terms of damage).
2. Effective recoil at short range - AFAICT at 10% 1/2D range or less a shotgun still has Recoil 1, so it's very easy to hit 'perfectly' with multiple shots even though they are effectively single shots. Shotguns do not actually have no recoil!

Thoughts?

My suggested fixes:

1. Change 10% 1/2D range damage so it's equal to all the pellets hitting.
2. Change the Recoil of a shotgun at 10% 1/2D range and under to 4. That's the same as a full-bore bolt-action rifle, which seems about right. Heavier shotguns could be given Recoil 3. Sawn-offs would keep Recoil 4, as their lighter weight would be balanced by the lower power their short barrels confer.

[cccwebs]

Doesn't a shotgun at extreme close range just **** off an armored target anyway? I was always under the impression that the "massive" damage of the shotgun was due to the spread of the "shots". At extreme close range those smaller projectiles shouldn't have greater penetrating power than a pistol.

Against an unarmored opponent, or one with minimal armor, that ****gun is still gonna rip someone up under the current rules.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Doesn't a shotgun at extreme close range just **** off an armored target anyway? I was always under the impression that the "massive" damage of the shotgun was due to the spread of the "shots". At extreme close range those smaller projectiles shouldn't have greater penetrating power than a pistol.

Against an armoured target that's true.

Against an unarmored opponent, or one with minimal armor, that ****gun is still gonna rip someone up under the current rules.

No, it won't. 1d+1 x 9 means (1d+1) x4 under the current rules. Sounds good until you consider the pi- damage type. That drops the effective damage to that of a 9mm pistol, less if the victim has a heavy coat or biker jacket on.

[Sam Cade]

Shotgun damage is one of the few things about 4e that I don't like.

Ok..Buckshot is roughly .32 Cal,traveling at close to the same velocity as out of a .32ACP pocket pistol. figure 9 pellets per hull.
At 25 yards even an open choked shotgun will keep all 9 pellets inside of an FBI torso target.
At 15 yards its the pattern is the size of your head.
At 10 yards its smaller than your fist.
________________________________________

If you fire at a man sized target at sub-25 yard ranges ALL shot WILL hit your target, each doing equivilent damage to a .32 automatic pistol.

As we game it, your average 12ga. pumpgun has a rcl of 3,ROF of 2.
Shots at man- sized targets sub-25 yards do 1dx9 pi.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Against an armoured target that's true.


No, it won't. 1d+1 x 9 means (1d+1) x4 under the current rules. Sounds good until you consider the pi- damage type. That drops the effective damage to that of a 9mm pistol, less if the victim has a heavy coat or biker jacket on.

I could definitely see full damage, but pi- due to loss of shot coherency. There are few things less fun ballistically speaking than getting hit with an ounce of high velocity lead of any coherency.

[cccwebs]

No, it won't. 1d+1 x 9 means (1d+1) x4 under the current rules. Sounds good until you consider the pi- damage type. That drops the effective damage to that of a 9mm pistol, less if the victim has a heavy coat or biker jacket on.

Umm, the TL 7 Auto Shotgun would be 4d+4 pi- with a RoF 3 when under 5 yds with the current rules. against an unarmored opponent that's still massive damage from each shot. against an armored opponent, it's not so good as that armor get's multiplied by 4 just like the damage dice was. Now, past that 5 yds (up to 1/2D) that 1d+1 pi- with a RoF of 3x9, or 27 max possible hits at 1d+1 pi- each. again that's gonna rip up an unarmored opponent, but do nothing against DR 7 or greater armor.


keep it in perspective.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Umm, the TL 7 Auto Shotgun would be 4d+4 pi- with a RoF 3 when under 5 yds with the current rules. against an unarmored opponent that's still massive damage from each shot. against an armored opponent, it's not so good as that armor get's multiplied by 4 just like the damage dice was. Now, past that 5 yds (up to 1/2D) that 1d+1 pi- with a RoF of 3x9, or 27 max possible hits at 1d+1 pi- each. again that's gonna rip up an unarmored opponent, but do nothing against DR 7 or greater armor.


keep it in perspective.

I am, that's the trouble. (1d+1) x4 pi- is equivalent to 2d+2 pi, which is what a 9mm pistol does. It is less than half what a 5.56x45mm assault rifle does. This is not consistent with shotguns being the ultimate manstopper at close range. That's why I'm in favour of them hitting with all pellets for (1d+1) x9 pi-. That's about the same as 6d-1 pi (assuming no armour), or a little more than a 5.56x45mm or 7.62x39mm assault rifle, which seems much more reasonable. It's still less than a 7.62x51mm or .30-06, but as the shotgun is very unlikely to overpenetrate I think it's a better choice for close fighting.

[Sam Cade]

If anyone is intrested here are some buckshot patterns at 25 yards.
http://www.vangcomp.com/870_special.htm

[Staten]

I belive this answers most of the questions asked...


http://www.blackwaterusa.com/btw2004...s/1122epp.html


Yours
Elling

[HANS]

>]Short range damage - at 10% of 1/2D range and under damage is equal to that of half the total pellets. This doesn't sound too bad straight off - 4d+4 for a 12G. However, when you look more closely it's more like 4d+4 (0.25) pi-, so at 5 yards and under a 12 gauge shotgun is like a 9mm pistol, but doesn't penetrate as well. This is just wrong for a weapon that's supposed to be the ultimate close combat weapon (in terms of damage).

The small piercing damage (pi-) for 00 buckshot is an error -- it should be plain piercing. I have already submitted an errata a while ago, but not heard back from Andy yet. This is cleared up in HIGH-TECH once and for all. So the damage is 4d+4.

>Effective recoil at short range - AFAICT at 10% 1/2D range or less a shotgun still has Recoil 1, so it's very easy to hit 'perfectly' with multiple shots even though they are effectively single shots. Shotguns do not actually have no recoil!

For game purposes, it IS pretty realistic to hit with most of the payload at very short range.

I concede that the Rcl 1 for multiple rounds is a crutch prone to misunderstandings, but it works.

Cheers

HANS