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Old 02-16-2018, 05:39 AM   #1181
Žorkell
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Default Re: Report To The Stakeholders

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Originally Posted by Dragondog View Post
I don't remember any mystery cost with the kickstarter. And after a quick look, I didn't find anything either.
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Originally Posted by Owen Smith View Post
I had no mystery costs either, I checked at the time Žorkell originally raised it during the Kickstarter.
As I recall it was marked as 'Processing Fee' or 'Handling Fee' or something along those lines. I have never used Kickstarter and am in no way sure if a processing fee is normal there.
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Old 02-16-2018, 06:19 AM   #1182
Kromm
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Originally Posted by Žorkell View Post

As I recall it was marked as 'Processing Fee' or 'Handling Fee' or something along those lines. I have never used Kickstarter and am in no way sure if a processing fee is normal there.
I have no idea. But one important thing was pointed out to me the first time I said, "I don't quite get Kickstarter":
You are not buying something. You are supporting something.
Yes, you get some stuff for your support. However, even in the not-so-fine print, the transaction is really, "I am pledging $X to support project P, and I will receive Q as a result," rather than, "I am paying $X for Q." That isn't free rein to include weird fees, but I cannot find any evidence of weird fees in this case.
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Old 02-16-2018, 08:33 AM   #1183
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Originally Posted by Žorkell View Post
As I recall it was marked as 'Processing Fee' or 'Handling Fee' or something along those lines. I have never used Kickstarter and am in no way sure if a processing fee is normal there.
You live in Iceland, right? Perhaps it was extra added on due to differences in dealing with international versus domestic shipping.

When I lived in Germany even Amazon.de had extra fees if the item was coming from outside of the EU. And there rarely seemed to be consistency. I even had a case where it was cheaper to order a game book through Amazon.com (U.S. Amazon) than getting from the German Amazon.

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Old 02-16-2018, 02:03 PM   #1184
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I am sorry that DF was not a financial success, but glad the SJ was able to release the report so early in the new year!

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
I have no idea. But one important thing was pointed out to me the first time I said, "I don't quite get Kickstarter":
You are not buying something. You are supporting something.
Yes, you get some stuff for your support. However, even in the not-so-fine print, the transaction is really, "I am pledging $X to support project P, and I will receive Q as a result," rather than, "I am paying $X for Q." That isn't free rein to include weird fees, but I cannot find any evidence of weird fees in this case.
I remember the culture shock when one early project which I backed failed and faded away. Some people were all "where is my gizmo? You promised us a gizmo!" and I was "so your experimental project to invent a gizmo failed. Too bad, but most experiments fail!"

That said, some people use Kickstarter as more a microcredit system to pay fixed costs in advance.
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:37 AM   #1185
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* Regardless of whether you like the aesthetics of the art, we took pride in avoiding things like making all the characters either white men or women in mail bikinis. We also tried to depict plausible weapons and armor, and match creature art to creature descriptions. All of which meant a lot of back-and-forth over art long after the text was a done deal.
By the way, kudos on this! I know you're not the only folks doing this, but I also have heard from others trying it that it's an uphill climb. What I've heard is that artists have figured out that the standard in fantasy RPGs is burly white guys and hot white babes in chainmail bikinis, so they default to that at all times, believing that is what people will want unless they're very clearly told otherwise.

It sounds like nobody disagrees that DFPRG is an interesting and worthwhile game from the point of view of the thing which was created.

Is there any way to separate RPG distribution from board game distribution? Everything I read about the market being periodical-like and having a short memory focuses on boardgames. I realize that SJ Games *is* a board and card game company, and that for more than a decade RPGs have been only a small sideline. Still the way people play RPGs is extremely different from how they play board games, and the nature of the games themselves lends far more to a slow-burn, takes-time-to-learn and get into play style than board games. With board games, the expectation is that you can open up a game, sit down, read the rules, play it, and have a fun evening, with zero prep ahead of time. RPGs are almost never like that. So, RPGs being driven by the marketing needs of board games means that RPGs are going to get swept under the tide.
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Old 02-17-2018, 12:43 PM   #1186
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That is a very interesting question.

I think the answer is yes and no.

Yes, RPGs have access to PDF distribution, which boardgames mostly don't. So those are already decoupled.

No, RPGs are so traditionally a part of the stock in trade of the adventure game retailer and distributor that the physical products are not going to decouple.
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Old 02-17-2018, 12:45 PM   #1187
DouglasCole
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Originally Posted by rknop View Post
What I've heard is that artists have figured out that the standard in fantasy RPGs is burly white guys and hot white babes in chainmail bikinis, so they default to that at all times, believing that is what people will want unless they're very clearly told otherwise.
I'm not sure about this, if only because I provide pretty explicit art direction to my projects, which includes suggestions on such things. Valid armor is a pet hobby horse of mine, as are weapons and stances for warriors that look like folks know what they're doing. But if I'm not unusual in terms of what I provide in terms of being an art director, then it's not the artists.
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Old 02-17-2018, 08:51 PM   #1188
Kromm
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I'm not sure about this, if only because I provide pretty explicit art direction to my projects
Of course, art direction is the thing. When you're on the clock, providing art direction and follow-up corrections adds to production costs in a way that it doesn't when it's a labor of love. I invoiced a lot of hours on that . . . In fact, I spent more paid hours reviewing art for the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game than I've billed to all art approval ever for all of GURPS in 23 years.
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Old 02-17-2018, 09:06 PM   #1189
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And it looks great.
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Old 02-17-2018, 09:22 PM   #1190
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. . .
Still the way people play RPGs is extremely different from how they play board games, and the nature of the games themselves lends far more to a slow-burn, takes-time-to-learn and get into play style than board games.
. . .
rknop's post really resonated with me.

For me at least, I really appreciate game systems and universes that are immersive and that I can invest in. Something that is playable and has depth is exciting.

The original Car Wars filled that niche for me. Though I never got into them, I'm certain games like Battletech and Warhammer also had that depth and length of appeal. And even in this "periodicals" market, there are still recent games that endure in this fashion. While no aficionado in its culture, X-Wing comes to my mind.

I think the market has enough angles to it that you can chase whichever one happens to pique your bias at the moment whether you're an individual gamer or a whole game producer.

It would seem absurd to me to drop one RPG for another every few months. Even those who have that capacity probably go back to their favorites.

Somebody will still make games that stick around for a while, and the people who want to play them will find them.
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