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Old 06-09-2008, 02:28 AM   #11
Bazz
 
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Default Re: Using wishing ring against Curse! Rations Spoiled.

i can understand the logic, because wishing ring says it can be used on any curse at any time, but i alwasy felt the intention was to enable you to cancel curses when they came up during other players turns, rather than to allow you to effectively cancel half a curse.
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Old 06-09-2008, 05:20 AM   #12
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Default Re: Using wishing ring against Curse! Rations Spoiled.

Well, some easier question:
While rolling for bad luck in Rations Spoiled case, some player used (Re)Loaded Die. After rolling looser uses Wishing Ring. Do (Re)Loaded dice return to owner?
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Old 06-09-2008, 05:25 AM   #13
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Default Re: Using wishing ring against Curse! Rations Spoiled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenSpb
Well... following given logic there can be a following gameplay:
Player A gets Curse! Income Tax and discards something expensive (e.g. Pollymorph potion).
Every other player has to loose lots of items. So Player B waits until other people finish discarding their cards and then plays the WR (that costs only 500) to cancel curse and save his own equipment.
I feel there should be a bit finer clarification.
Except, if someone cancels Income Tax, it cancels the whole thing. So everyone would get their items back. It wouldn't work the way you suggest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenSpb
Well, some easier question:
While rolling for bad luck in Rations Spoiled case, some player used (Re)Loaded Die. After rolling looser uses Wishing Ring. Do (Re)Loaded dice return to owner?
I would say no.
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Old 06-09-2008, 07:25 AM   #14
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Default Re: Using wishing ring against Curse! Rations Spoiled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Progmode
Quote:
Originally Posted by DenSpb
Well, some easier question: While rolling for bad luck in Rations Spoiled case, some player used (Re)Loaded Die. After rolling looser uses Wishing Ring. Do (Re)Loaded dice return to owner?
I would say no.
Unfortunately, given Erik's ruling (above) that the Wishing Ring can be used AFTER the victims are decided upon.

I see RevBob's point, in that the dice rolls are part of the Curse, and thus should be treated as part of the Curse's function -- if you wait until the dice are being rolled, you've accepted the Curse being cast (so to speak). At least the way the Curse is written ("This curse affects the whole party. Everyone with a Steed rolls a die....")

Plus, I think I prefer the "you rolls the dice, you takes your chances" aspect.

On the flip side, we already have as precedent Erik's ruling on how Wishing Ring works with Curse! Income Tax:
Quote:
The Wishing Ring says that it CANCELS any curse. This means that if a player uses it, the curse is gone and everyone is spared if the curse's effects are global. The only card that currently overrides that is New Edition Rules, of course. So, what happens if everyone dumps their cards, and the last guy decides to use a Wishing ring? Everyone gets their stuff back.
Given the "everyone gets there stuff back" if the last guy in line decides to use Wishing Ring after all, I don't see the current ruling re: Rations Spoiled as conflicting.

Mind you, I don't like it. But, as Erik finished off his above ruling re: Income Tax:
Quote:
However, a less friendly group would probably use my "all or one" philosophy as a house rule.
I'd definitely consider my group as "less friendly", though I'm undecided on how that would affect the use of a (Re)Loaded Die in my games. A conflict between applied logic and cruel shoes.
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Old 06-09-2008, 01:20 PM   #15
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Default Re: Using wishing ring against Curse! Rations Spoiled.

I understand the ruling that Erik has made. As he says it is in line with other cards he has ruled on. I think that there is another aspect of this that has been over looked. Since the remainder of my thought is more in line with a House Rule, please find the rest of my thoughts here
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Old 06-10-2008, 05:16 PM   #16
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Default Re: Using wishing ring against Curse! Rations Spoiled.

RevBob: When you talk about the hireling or roll situation, it's two different things.

You may sacrifice a hireling OR you may roll.

Rations Spoiled does not say Sacrifice your steed OR roll. You have to roll, then Sac your steed, but since you can cancel any curse at any time while the curse is still being played, you could use your ring after rolling but before sacking your mount. I don't understand how there's confusion about this. The card is still being worked out, even if it's not a persistent effect, like tiny hands, the card has not yet been resolved. until you actually throw your steed on the discard pile you have the right to defend yourself. If you throw out a monster and someone helps it do you decide that since they helped the monster you can't try to help yourself? Until the monster is resolved, i.e. it's dead or you've tried to run, you can do anything you want to try to beat it. heck you could throw O'Rlyeh to negate the card just drawn or played, depending on how it came into play. there's a bunch of things you could do, but at least go kicking and screaming until the end.
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Old 06-10-2008, 05:29 PM   #17
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Default Re: Using wishing ring against Curse! Rations Spoiled.

Unless I am miss understanding him, I believe RevBob is trying to say that by picking up the die and rolling it you have accepted the consequences of the curse. Once you have rolled the die it is too late.
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Old 06-10-2008, 06:47 PM   #18
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Default Re: Using wishing ring against Curse! Rations Spoiled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowere
Unless I am miss understanding him, I believe RevBob is trying to say that by picking up the die and rolling it you have accepted the consequences of the curse. Once you have rolled the die it is too late.
That is exactly my argument, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogmeat
RevBob: When you talk about the hireling or roll situation, it's two different things.
But there's a parallel between them, in that both give you the choice of (a) using a card for an automatic success or (b) rolling the die and possibly failing. In the case of hireling sacrifice, you must choose one or the other; you can't roll, fail, and then sacrifice to turn the failure into a success. That's a good rule, and sets a good precedent - one which I feel should apply here.

Consider also that, where possible, effects are supposed to be immediate - that is, if a Thief swipes your Pollymorph Potion, even though the mechanics of theft take some time to work, you can't use that real-time lag to sell the potion for a level to keep the Thief from getting it. The Thief discards his card, announces his target, makes his roll, and that's that. Although the mechanic of the die roll can be modified by (Re)Loaded Die, the potion is "locked" in place because it's the target of an immediate effect. You can't sell it, you can't give it away - once the Thief has paid for his attempt, the only way you can stop him is to change his roll. Well, once the Curse starts to take effect, it's too late to prevent it - and it doesn't stick around to be removed a couple of turns later, like Tiny Hands or Big Feet do.

When you get right down to it, Rations Spoiled is just another immediate effect (lose a Steed) with a die roll attached. You have a chance to cancel the Curse (which, as written, affects the whole party - so it's not a case of the roll defining the target) before the roll. IMO, if you choose to let the Curse take effect and proceed to the roll, you've lost your chance to cancel the Curse, and you get to suffer if you lose. Choices have consequences, boo hoo, maybe next time you won't be so reckless. :)

In fact, one could even look at this Curse as resolving its effect before the die is rolled - after all, per the text, the effect of the Curse is that the party's rations spoil. Yes, there's a secondary effect that someone has to sacrifice his Steed to replenish the rations, and a die is rolled to determine who makes that sacrifice...but once the food spoils, the party's gotta eat.

(Now, if we were playing SPANC or Ninja Burger instead of Munchkin, my position would be exactly opposite - because those games explicitly allow you to use cards after the roll. Big difference.)
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Old 06-10-2008, 07:30 PM   #19
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Default Re: Using wishing ring against Curse! Rations Spoiled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RevBob
In fact, one could even look at this Curse as resolving its effect before the die is rolled - after all, per the text, the effect of the Curse is that the party's rations spoil. Yes, there's a secondary effect that someone has to sacrifice his Steed to replenish the rations, and a die is rolled to determine who makes that sacrifice...but once the food spoils, the party's gotta eat.
I can see where you're coming from, but this bit is just downright intellectually dishonest. We both know that first bit is flavor text. Trying to use it to rationalize your position isn't a valid argument.

EDIT: Additionally, I think that we should all remember the metarule that just because one mechanic works one way, doesn't mean all mechanics that are somewhat similar work that way.
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Last edited by Progmode; 06-10-2008 at 07:33 PM.
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Old 06-10-2008, 10:25 PM   #20
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Default Re: Using wishing ring against Curse! Rations Spoiled.

All this commentary that contradicts the official ruling is going to confuse people who actually might come here with the intent of finding actual, official answers. As I've told someone else not that long ago: If you don't like the official ruling, I'm sorry, but a continuous stream of "why Erik is wrong" is not an acceptable way to express your dislike, frustration or upset at the official ruling. I'd like to add that I'm fairly resolute once I make a final decision and changing my mind requires an act of <$deity>. So, I'm going to close this thread and ask people to move on before this gets flame-y, which is where I'm seeing this headed at this point.
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