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Old 03-21-2008, 08:10 PM   #21
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds

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Originally Posted by demonsbane

Hm, I'm not reconciling Cabal nor Kabbalah with "Infinite Worlds" . . .
Hell, you can't even reconcile orthodox Kabbalah with Gurps Cabal.

It's a matter of "Canon Doubt and Uncertainty" (to borrow a phrase) in G:Cabal that the big glowy thing at the center of Briah is "God" "YVWH" or even the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

It's definitely suggested that the Grand Masters of the Cabal are only pretending to have achieved oneness with the Godhead.

G:Cabal is more about a specific system of Renaissance astrology and mystic thought based on the Decans. The Kabbalah Tree of Life is kind of just a backdoor or legacy found within the system and not the central tenet.
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Old 03-21-2008, 08:30 PM   #22
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Default Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds

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Originally Posted by demonsbane
That isn't so.

The planets always were included along the vertical chain of Being, but they weren't regarded as "purely material worlds inhabited by human or human-like beings"
OK, so you've precluded the planets as well. Obviously their version of it is different from yours.
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Old 03-21-2008, 08:35 PM   #23
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Default Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds

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OK, so you've precluded the planets as well. Obviously their version of it is different from yours.
In general, is better to read the posts in a thread before trying to discuss them.
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Old 03-22-2008, 05:59 AM   #24
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Default Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds

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Originally Posted by demonsbane
In general, is better to read the posts in a thread before trying to discuss them.
Ouch. I would actually say that David Johnston2's statement followed on quite clearly from reading the posts in the thread.

The following is not an attempt to change your mind about anything, but an option for people who would like to combine the Cabal with Infinite Worlds (and/or Space) with a cosmology similar to what you have outlined. It basically hinges on the definitions of "worlds".
  1. Let's assume there is a single ontological point where the Tree of Life crosses a horizontal plane defining the corporeal world of Assiah.
  2. Despite the Kabbalistic vertical alignment of "planets", there are corporeal planets too - Neil Armstrong didn't ascend to a higher realm, he simply moved to a different location in Assiah. This is enough to handle GURPS Space campaigns.
  3. There is nothing to say that the Infinite Worlds cannot all be part of the same horizontal plane of Assiah. The word "parallel" is used in a different context, and what it is parallel to has nothing to do with Kabbalah. In both cases they are analogies to geometric properties and not to be taken literally (Assiah is not two-dimensional).

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Old 03-22-2008, 08:14 AM   #25
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Default Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds

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Originally Posted by elv
  1. Despite the Kabbalistic vertical alignment of "planets", there are corporeal planets too - Neil Armstrong didn't ascend to a higher realm, he simply moved to a different location in Assiah.

    ]
In G:Cabal the mystical "planets" (including the Sun and the Moon) are locations in Briah not Assiah.
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Old 03-22-2008, 12:02 PM   #26
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Default Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin
In G:Cabal the mystical "planets" (including the Sun and the Moon) are locations in Briah not Assiah.
That is the point, and corresponds with Kabbalistic teachings.
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Old 03-22-2008, 06:41 PM   #27
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Default Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds

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That is the point, and corresponds with Kabbalistic teachings.
I thought the point was that we have non-mystical planets with the same names and they are in Assiah. Why we can't have non-mystical parallel worlds in Assiah too is not clear to me.

Hell, we could have Kabbala and the Cabal (and note that these are different things) both be wrong too.
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Old 03-22-2008, 07:28 PM   #28
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Default Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds

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I thought the point was that we have non-mystical planets with the same names and they are in Assiah. Why we can't have non-mystical parallel worlds in Assiah too is not clear to me.
The point regarding the earlier objection is Kabbalah doesn't admit the different planets as non-mystical. All them are regarded as different states of the being -"worlds", in its view- occupying different places (intersection points) in the vertical chain.

Assiah isn't but the planet earth. If you regard "the material order" as a immense space containing diverse physical worlds, sorry but that isn't Kabbalah but modern day astronomy. Both are mutually exclusive (=inconsistent).

If you don't want to leave behind the current scientific world-view, then you can't handle Kabbalah nor even in a fictional way.

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Hell, we could have Kabbala and the Cabal (and note that these are different things) both be wrong too.
If you don't follow the structure of Kabbalah, then that isn't Kabbalah but a different thing invented by yourself. Using then, the name of a "historical real world doctrine" and some of its cosmological teachings is the formula for unnecessary misunderstandings.

GURPS Cabal uses some of the flavour of Kabbalah. And using part of a historically real world doctrine as background provides the cool feeling easying and enhancing immersion and suspension of disbelief. It is the same thing as using Nazis as villains. Of course, GURPS Cabal is a very modified version of Cabbala suited for horror roleplaying, so that alone is a significant modification (or distortion). . . Sure, that isn't Kabbalah, but at least it s a bit recognizable . . . At least, it keeps formally the structure of Chain of Being . . .

If you add space travels, interdimensional travel, the thing is much, even much less consistent, worsening to the point of being comparable to a computer programming bug or a geometric and ontological impossibility, a true logical mess. Because intergalactic and interdimensional travel are currently shared beliefs and goals of modern people, is no surprise Kabbalah, not being compatible nor consistent with the official Weltanschauung of today, remains discarded as a speculation devoid of any true sense or truth.

At least, that is logic within the current Weltanschauung.
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Old 03-22-2008, 07:30 PM   #29
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Default Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds

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Originally Posted by demonsbane
That is the point, and corresponds with Kabbalistic teachings.
But real life kabbalists live in a world where there are actually planets no less material than ours. They manage to cope.

Last edited by David Johnston2; 03-22-2008 at 07:35 PM.
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Old 03-22-2008, 07:38 PM   #30
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Default Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds

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But real life kabbalists live in a world where there are actually planets no less material than ours.
But that wasn't their experience, and they couldn't care less about Neil Armstrong.

Kabbalah disregards any knowledge method and observational procedures mediated trough machines, computers or modern technological artifacts (approximately all what is superior to TL3) going beyond the intuitive and more or less immediate perception of the human senses.
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Last edited by demonsbane; 03-22-2008 at 07:43 PM. Reason: typo
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