Vampires: Draining vs. Dependency vs. Restricted Diet vs. Uncontrollable Appetite

[vicky_molokh]

Greetings, all!

More as a thought experiment than as a serious project (at least so far, but it might change soon) our "GMing Committee" is pondering a Blood Types-ish setting. One of the points of interest is the game-mechanical distinction between the listed traits, an what choices the GM should make when designing creatures with these traits.

The issue of possible inequality between Draining and Dependency has been raised recently. Another similar balance issue is the fact that Uncontrollable Appetite would give a lot more trouble to a character with Draining/Dependency than to one without either, yet it always costs the same amount.

There's the question as to why the rarity of blood (any warm-blooded, human etc.) isn't listed for Dependency. I was rather disappointed that for Draining, it is only -5 to need human blood (What about more humane vampires? ;)). Restricted Diet (Human Blood) + Reduced Consumption 4 would presumably give 12 points and only require rare sips . . .

. . . Speaking of which, how much blood is equal to One Meal for someone with Restricted Diet (Blood) and no reduced consumption?

Has anybody tackled these questions?

Thanks in advance to all who answer!

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Molokh

There's the question as to why the rarity of blood (any warm-blooded, human etc.) isn't listed for Dependency.

Undead for 3rd Ed has human blood at Occasional. (Since they changed the names of the frequencies it would be Common in 4th Ed).

[RedMattis]

This might be helpfull, it was the answer I got when I asked Kromm about Draining and Dependency.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Draining includes two parts:

1. Daily HP loss, no matter what.

2. The ability to heal those HP (and only those HP) instantly if you get a substance.

You do have to eat! Eating blood counts as eating; that's why vampires lack Doesn't Eat or Drink.

Dependency includes one part:

1. Cyclic HP loss if you don't get a substance.

The latter is a bigger disad in general because the HP loss is standard injury and not some sequestered pool of HP that regenerates instantly if you drink a little blood or whatever.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Another similar balance issue is the fact that Uncontrollable Appetite would give a lot more trouble to a character with Draining/Dependency than to one without either, yet it always costs the same amount.

In my opinion, that's just a synergy between a couple of your disadvantages screwing you over, not "Uncontrollable Appetite" being worth more.

Much like someone with Berserk and Bad Temper doesn't get more points for being Berserk, despite the fact that Bad Temper means he berserks at minor irritations instead of just combat damage or real life threatening circumstances.

Impulsive and Curious don't have a game-mechanical synergy, but in my experience it's another "Terrible twosome". Impulsive and ANYTHING with a self-control roll generally spells trouble, though. :D If someone makes their self-control roll vs (for example Curious) to see Whats In The Box, but blows their Impulsive roll they might go and open the box anyways. It's almost like forcing them to check twice against everything.

[NineDaysDead]

Draining includes two parts:

1. Daily HP loss, no matter what.

2. The ability to heal those HP (and only those HP) instantly if you get a substance.

You do have to eat! Eating blood counts as eating; that's why vampires lack Doesn't Eat or Drink.

Dependency includes one part:

1. Cyclic HP loss if you don't get a substance.

The latter is a bigger disad in general because the HP loss is standard injury and not some sequestered pool of HP that regenerates instantly if you drink a little blood or whatever.

Given those mechanics, I think Kromm is wrong that dependancy is a bigger disadvantage.

If both go 30 days without blood, then blood becomes available: dependency loses 0HP and Draining loses 60HP (which assuming the draining PC is still alive and conscious so he can drink, then instantly heal). Draining is clearly the loser here. If they go less time, draining still loses HP, and dependancy still doesn’t lose HP.

If both go 31 days without blood, then blood becomes available: dependency loses 1HP and Draining loses 62HP (If the character with draining is still alive, and able to drink, they canthen heal). The character with draining might is better off here, if they are still alive, if not then draining is clealy worse.

When it comes to surviving long term deprivation, dependency is always better.

When it comes to recovering from long term deprivation, Draining is rarely* better, assuming you actually survive! This is quite an unlikely assumption when you look at the numbers.

*you have to survive 30 days without blood -losing 60 HP- for draining’s instant healing to have superiority.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Given those mechanics, I think Kromm is wrong that dependancy is a bigger disadvantage.

If both go 30 days without blood, then blood becomes available: dependency loses 0HP and Draining loses 60HP (which assuming the draining PC is still alive and conscious so he can drink, then instantly heal). Draining is clearly the loser here. If they go less time, draining still loses HP, and dependancy still doesn’t lose HP.

Comparing a monthly Dependancy and the always-daily Draining is pretty ridiculous, IMO.

Compare the daily Dependancy which is about twice the value of the daily Draining, and start depriving them both of blood.

(Excuse the sort of funny columns)

Day    Draining    Dependancy
1      2     24
5     10    120
10    20    240
20    40    480
30    60    720

To top things off, the Draining vampire gets those HP back instantly. The Dependancy vampire just stops loosing them.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Comparing a monthly Dependancy and the always-daily Draining is pretty ridiculous, IMO.

Dependency: Common (Human Blood), Monthly, Illegal [-15]
Must drink Human Blood every Month or start losing 1HP per day.

Draining: Common (Human Blood), Illegal [-10]
Must drink Human Blood every day or start losing 2HP per day.

Look at the point totals. A monthly Dependancy is worth more points than a always-daily Draining. So why isn't it as bad?

Compare the daily Dependancy which is about twice the value of the daily Draining, and start depriving them both of blood.

Your missing the point, of course the daily Dependancy is worse, you get 4.5 times as many CP for it. Dependancy [-45] vs. Draining [-10].

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Given those mechanics, I think Kromm is wrong that dependancy is a bigger disadvantage.

Then can you keep up the discussion with him, since you keep the PM archive of it?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Comparing a monthly Dependancy and the always-daily Draining is pretty ridiculous, IMO.

Compare the daily Dependancy which is about twice the value of the daily Draining, and start depriving them both of blood.

(Excuse the sort of funny columns)

Day    Draining    Dependancy
1      2     24
5     10    120
10    20    240
20    40    480
30    60    720

To top things off, the Draining vampire gets those HP back instantly. The Dependancy vampire just stops loosing them.

No, you should compare them by point value, not by frequency. Then it is fair.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Then can you keep up the discussion with him, since you keep the PM archive of it?

RedMattis is the one who PM'd Kromm, not me.