Grapple and Posture

[mook]

Yup, me again!

The description of the Judo Throw on MA75 says that you do not lose your grapple on an opponent after a successful throw, only on a critical failure. But B370 says that "to grapple a prone, kneeling, or sitting opponent you must kneel or lie down yourself".

Should I take this to mean that if you throw your opponent, you can maintain your grapple while he is prone and you are standing; but if you are standing, to actually establish a grapple on a prone (or kneeling, or sitting) opponent you need to adjust your posture?

[Maz]

The way I would read that would be to say that you can retain your grab if throwing, but you have to 'follow' the thrown person (into a kneeling or prone position), so you automatically changes posture as part of the throw.

[Crakkerjakk]

The only problem with this is you don't have to do this in real life if you have a limb grappled. You can remain standing if you have a leg or arm in a lock. For torso or head, I would say you had to be a step removed from the targets posture(kneeling for a prone target, etc.)

However, on a strictly rules interpretation, the Judo skill itself (B203) says nothing about having a grapple when executing a Judo throw. All it says that after a successful parry, you may attempt to throw them. So, looking only at Basic, I would say that the Judo throw is itself not a grapple, and therefore you do not retain a grapple when tossing someone to the ground.

Adding in the MA text on MA75, I would say that you only retain a grapple if you first grapple your opponent, and follow that up with a throw, per the rules on MA75. In this case you only lose the grapple on a critical failure. From my personal experience, it's not that hard to hold on to part of someone you are throwing, as people tend to cling to things when they get lifted into the air.

*EDIT*
And mook, to address your question specifically, I would interpret it as, if you throw someone while grappled, you may remain standing if you have a limb or change to kneeling if you have a head or torso. If you are attempting to grapple with them already in another position, you must do so in the same posture they are in, as you don't have the option of just hanging on as you toss them to the ground. Excellent work on the combat examples, btw. Really interesting stuff.

[Maz]

Perhaps my idea of a throw where you retain the hold is actually more like a Grab and Smash. I do not have any real experience with this outside of 'for fun' wrestling when I was a teenager, where I seem to recall that if you got someone to the floor you either had to let go, or go down with them.

But that was just for fun and none of us had ANY training at all.

[Crakkerjakk]

No offense meant here, but thats the difference between Brawling and Judo, Maz. Most of the martial arts that deal with tossing people make it fairly easy to hold onto the person being tossed. In fact, a lot of times thats how you slow down the throws so you don't hurt your partner when sparring.

[Pesterfield]

"to grapple a prone, kneeling, or sitting opponent you must kneel or lie down yourself".

Does it mention arm/leg grapples, or is it assuming torso?

Considering that a throw from an arm or leg lock can damage the limb it certainly sounds like you'd still be holding on for at least most of the trip.

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by mook

Yup, me again!

The description of the Judo Throw on MA75 says that you do not lose your grapple on an opponent after a successful throw, only on a critical failure. But B370 says that "to grapple a prone, kneeling, or sitting opponent you must kneel or lie down yourself".

Should I take this to mean that if you throw your opponent, you can maintain your grapple while he is prone and you are standing; but if you are standing, to actually establish a grapple on a prone (or kneeling, or sitting) opponent you need to adjust your posture?

I think you can maintain your grapple on a thrown opponent while still standing but in that case your arms come off and go with him.

[Verjigorm]

I play to the tune of thrown foes either being released(if wanted, for example to defensestrate someone) or to be held. If you hold the grapple, you have to be able to crouch, kneel, sit or lie prone. You can general drop to prone for free, and crouching is generally accomodating by the rules.

[DouglasCole]

We do a lot of throwing in Hwa Rang Do. We have a couple throws we call "fireman's throws" and one we call "monkey throw" that involve releasing the grapple voluntarily. The monkey throw purposefully rolls back and you go prone, the other two you stay standing.

In MOST of our arm and hip throws, we remain standing and maintain the grapple. If you go down with them, it's voluntary. We'd stay kneeling if we're dealing with multiple attackers but need to follow up with the thrown person. If it's one-on-one, we can go to ground.

So basically, given the broad context of the Judo skill in GURPS, I'd expect that part of the thing about a particular style is knowing whether you are trained to let go, maintain the grapple, remain standing, go kneeling, or hit prone. The skill itself should allow anything; each stylist will have a preference depending on his training.

[Crakkerjakk]

Mr. Cole, are you suggesting that a certain style allows you to throw an individual to the ground, yet maintain your grapple with that individuals head while standing? Cause it seems to me that "that dog just don't hunt," as my old company gunny used to say. If you have an example of this in the real world, I am willing to revise my opinion, but as it stands, I don't think realistically Judo should allow you to do this.