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Old 12-01-2007, 10:44 PM   #1
Easterner9504
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Mesa, AZ
Default HIGH-TECH-Arrived-Gun Damage

Received G:HT today Pistol damage has some interesting twists.

.45 ACP 2D pi+ Unchanged from basic GURPS
.40 S&W 2D+2 pi+ Basic was 2D so now more powerful than .45 ACP
.45 GAP 2D pi+ Equal to .45 ACP despite smaller case
.357 SIG 3D-1 pi A 9mm equal to .45 ACP (17 vs 18 max damage)
10mm 3D-1 pi+ Pretty powerful, odd it never caught on
.50AE 4D pi+

Quote:
Loading Data REAL WORLD
.357 SIG 115gr .355"diam Unique 8.0gr 1415mv
.357 SIG 147gr .355" " Unique 6.6gr 1220mv

.45ACP 185gr .451"diam Unique 8.3gr 1160mv
.45ACP 230gr .451" " Unique 6.1gr 950mv

.45GAP 185gr .451"diam Unique 7.7gt 1009mv
.45GAP 200gr .451" " Unique 7.3gr 1002mv

.40S&W 135gr .400"diam Unique 7.4gr 1320mv
.40S&W 180gr .400" " Unique 6.2 915MV

How exactly does .40 & .357 come out so good in GURPS
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Old 12-01-2007, 10:47 PM   #2
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Default Re: HIGH-TECH-Arrived-Gun Damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Easterner9504
Received G:HT today Pistol damage has some interesting twists.

.45 ACP 2D pi+ Unchanged from basic GURPS
.40 S&W 2D+2 pi+ Basic was 2D so now more powerful than .45 ACP
.45 GAP 2D pi+ Equal to .45 ACP despite smaller case
.357 SIG 3D-1 pi A 9mm equal to .45 ACP (17 vs 18 max damage)
10mm 3D-1 pi+ Pretty powerful, odd it never caught on
.50AE 4D pi+




How exactly does .40 & .357 come out so good in GURPS
Looking at the real world data, I would say it's all about muzzle velocity; they have the highest Mv of the four.
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Old 12-01-2007, 10:51 PM   #3
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Default Re: HIGH-TECH-Arrived-Gun Damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Easterner9504
Received G:HT today Pistol damage has some interesting twists.

.45 ACP 2D pi+ Unchanged from basic GURPS
.40 S&W 2D+2 pi+ Basic was 2D so now more powerful than .45 ACP
.45 GAP 2D pi+ Equal to .45 ACP despite smaller case
.357 SIG 3D-1 pi A 9mm equal to .45 ACP (17 vs 18 max damage)
10mm 3D-1 pi+ Pretty powerful, odd it never caught on
.50AE 4D pi+




How exactly does .40 & .357 come out so good in GURPS
I'd guess the .40 S&W load in basic is 180 grains @ 900 Feet per second where as the .40 load in High Tech is probably the more effective 155 grains @ 1150 - like a bigger 9mm. Hence the figures

.357 is scary powerful -- base load from a 4" barrel is 158 grains @ 1250 fps (40% more weight and 10% more velocity) for lower tech (tl6) The main police load (by Tl7) is stomping 125 grains @ 1450 FPS -- roughly the same weight as a 9mm but 25% faster . In a 20" barrel carbine this load gets 2000 FPS-- probably 4d+1 or so. Thats a hella lot of power.
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Old 12-01-2007, 11:13 PM   #4
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Default Re: HIGH-TECH-Arrived-Gun Damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadurian Mike
Looking at the real world data, I would say it's all about muzzle velocity; they have the highest Mv of the four.
The problem being is MV gives good penetration FN 5.7 & 9mm are high MV but weak rounds. The bullet weight is primary stopper which is why .45 so popular & 9mm greatly dropping off since magazine ban (now lifted some places). The .40 should be at best the same as .45; .357 is a 9mm variant uses necked down .40 case but still .355 bullet. One problem with high velocity rounds is they tend not to expand when hitting a body.

Example: Sgt Baker was found dead on Saipan with slide locked .45, 8 dead Japanese in front of him, 1 shot, 1 kil,l 8x= MOH (posthumous).

Example a friend of mine served with man in Korea with 3 punctures on chest, survived burst from MP40 9mm SMG, 3 bullets, no expansion= survivable wounds.

In similar problem semi AP rounds army used in M16 don't expand, so in BLACKHAWK DOWN book Deltas recount need for 12 5.56mm rounds to drop a Skinny. Rifle MV head & shoulders above pistols.
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Old 12-01-2007, 11:19 PM   #5
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Default Re: HIGH-TECH-Arrived-Gun Damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Easterner9504
The problem being is MV gives good penetration FN 5.7 & 9mm are high MV but weak rounds. The bullet weight is primary stopper which is why .45 so popular & 9mm greatly dropping off since magazine ban (now lifted some places). The .40 should be at best the same as .45; .357 is a 9mm variant uses necked down .40 case but still .355 bullet. One problem with high velocity rounds is they tend not to expand when hitting a body.

Example: Sgt Baker was found dead on Saipan with slide locked .45, 8 dead Japanese in front of him, 1 shot, 1 kil,l 8x= MOH (posthumous).

Example a friend of mine served with man in Korea with 3 punctures on chest, survived burst from MP40 9mm SMG, 3 bullets, no expansion= survivable wounds.

In similar problem semi AP rounds army used in M16 don't expand, so in BLACKHAWK DOWN book Deltas recount need for 12 5.56mm rounds to drop a Skinny. Rifle MV head & shoulders above pistols.
Then there are people who die from arrows.... Sometimes, anecdotal evidence of survival and death don't make good analysis for how powerful a round is. Muzzle velocity is directly related to the power of the round, as it is often the ballistic shock that kills rather than the actual bullet damaging flesh.

Yes, 5.56mm rounds (which are only .223 after all) have been known to pass through or to not cause a man to stop and drop. However, I doubt that a .357 magnum would have that complaint levelled against it, nor the .40 S&W; these combine a large slug with high velocity.

If the bullet weight alone were the issue, we would all still be seeing soldiers firing big ol' musket balls. The fact that so many of these were dug out of people who survived seems to indicate that a second factor is missing, and this second factor is muzzle velocity.
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Last edited by Sadurian Mike; 12-01-2007 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 12-01-2007, 11:30 PM   #6
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Default Re: HIGH-TECH-Arrived-Gun Damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadurian Mike
Then there are people who die from arrows.... Sometimes, anecdotal evidence of survival and death don't make good analysis for how powerful a round is. Muzzle velocity is directly related to the power of the round, as it is often the ballistic shock that kills rather than the actual bullet damaging flesh.
Tread lightly when discussing ballistic shock as a killer. It tends to give rise to bitter arguments and accusation of poor science. In any case, no pistol cartridge in common use is fast enough for it to be of any consequence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadurian Mike
Yes, 5.56mm rounds (which are only .223 after all) have been known to pass through or to not cause a man to stop and drop. However, I doubt that a .357 magnum would have that complaint levelled against it, nor the .40 S&W; these combine a large slug with high velocity.
You are joking, right? .357 magnum rounds aren't magical silver bullets, any more than the .40 S&W. One bullet won't kill a man-sized creature instantly unless it hits the cerebellum. Bleeding is what kills and until that bleeding begings to tell, it's perfectly possible that a man might continue to run and attack after being hit by a dozen pistol bullets, be they 9mm, .357 or .40.

5.56 mm rounds have more stopping power than nearly any pistol round imaginable. They have less stopping power than full-size battle rifle rounds, but that's another argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadurian Mike
If the bullet weight alone were the issue, we would all still be seeing soldiers firing big ol' musket balls. The fact that so many of these were dug out of people who survived seems to indicate that a second factor is missing, and this second factor is muuzzel velocity.
And the fact that the ability to fire multiple rounds quickly and the logistical advantages of smaller and lighter ammuniton pretty much make muskets impractical.

A Brown Bess round is still an effective manstopper. It's about as effective as a .50 AE in that role, in fact. But one-shot stopping power alone isn't exactly what armies look for today, since there are many other considerations.
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Old 12-01-2007, 11:43 PM   #7
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Default Re: HIGH-TECH-Arrived-Gun Damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander
Tread lightly when discussing ballistic shock as a killer. It tends to give rise to bitter arguments and accusation of poor science. In any case, no pistol cartridge in common use is fast enough for it to be of any consequence.
Poor science? Okaaaaay. I guess you don't believe in it. No matter, plenty of scientists do. I am not suggesting pistol rounds kill through ballistic shock, btw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander
You are joking, right? .357 magnum rounds aren't magical silver bullets, any more than the .40 S&W. One bullet won't kill a man-sized creature instantly unless it hits the cerebellum. Bleeding is what kills and until that bleeding begings to tell, it's perfectly possible that a man might continue to run and attack after being hit by a dozen pistol bullets, be they 9mm, .357 or .40.
No, I'm not joking. The magnum round was specifically developed to increase the stopping penetrating and power of pistol cartridges. Bleeding only kills if the round misses causing shock, normally either through hitting an organ or major blood vessel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander
5.56 mm rounds have more stopping power than nearly any pistol round imaginable. They have less stopping power than full-size battle rifle rounds, but that's another argument.
Not so actually. There are plenty of tales of 5.56mm not stopping an opponent, but the .45 is still reliably reported as putting the opponent on his behind. It's what it was developed for, after all. 5.56mm is smaller and lighter than large calibre ammo, and the weapon does not need to be as strong and therefore as heavy, but it is not the magic man-stopper. That was graphically seen during the Falklands where RM Commandos (almost certainly SBS in fact) using 5.56mm saw opponents keep going, but they stayed down when hit with 7.62mm. If you are saying that 7.62mm is less powerful at the same muzzle velocity... well, call me hightly sceptical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander
And the fact that the ability to fire multiple rounds quickly and the logistical advantages of smaller and lighter ammuniton pretty much make muskets impractical.

A Brown Bess round is still an effective manstopper. It's about as effective as a .50 AE in that role, in fact. But one-shot stopping power alone isn't exactly what armies look for today, since there are many other considerations.
Did I say we would be using muskets?

I said that, if slug size was all it took, we would still be firing musket-balls. There would have been no need to develop a more powerful round. Rate of fire, reliability and all the rest have nothing to do with the argument of velocity+calibre versus calibre alone.

As for a musketball being as effective as modern rounds... again, if you are claiming it is as powerful as a .50 round then I am again highly sceptical. In fact, I would call you entirely wrong and ask where a musket ball was known to penetrate armour plate or even brick walls.
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Old 12-02-2007, 12:00 AM   #8
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Default Re: HIGH-TECH-Arrived-Gun Damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadurian Mike
No, I'm not joking. The magnum round was specifically developed to increase the stopping penetrating and power of pistol cartridges. Bleeding only kills if the round misses causing shock, normally either through hitting an organ or major blood vessel.
The magnum round was developed to increase the penetration and lethality of pistol cartridges, it's true, but that means an improvement from 'poor' to 'mediocre'.

Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness is more or less the mandatory place to start when talking about pistol lethality.
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Old 12-02-2007, 12:55 AM   #9
Easterner9504
 
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Default Re: HIGH-TECH-Arrived-Gun Damage

Bear in mind Ball-Pistol is the same shape now as in 1870's when cartridges introduced to pistols with a copper shell added. Long arms decreaed in diameter with new propellants. 1873 Govt. shaped like big pistol bullets but 7.92 Mauser spitzer design 1898 changed rifle bullets to needle nose, still in use today.

However as the esteemed lawyer frrom Iceland points out pistol MV is somewhat irrelevant, unlike rifles wherre it is definite killing additive.

But to not get too far off-topic My point is .40/357SIG seem too powerful (.45 ACP seems a bit weak but ignore that opinion)
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Old 12-02-2007, 01:07 AM   #10
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Default Re: HIGH-TECH-Arrived-Gun Damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Easterner9504
Received G:HT today Pistol damage has some interesting twists.

.45 ACP 2D pi+ Unchanged from basic GURPS
.40 S&W 2D+2 pi+ Basic was 2D so now more powerful than .45 ACP
.45 GAP 2D pi+ Equal to .45 ACP despite smaller case
.357 SIG 3D-1 pi A 9mm equal to .45 ACP (17 vs 18 max damage)
10mm 3D-1 pi+ Pretty powerful, odd it never caught on
.50AE 4D pi+




How exactly does .40 & .357 come out so good in GURPS
WTF?!?!

.40 S&W is NOT superior to .45 (either ACP or GAP).

As for 10mm.....its a popular round. Many people use it. I almost went 10mm myself....definitely more lethal than .45 ACP.
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