Regarding the Shapeshifting advantage....

[Ack]

As I understand things, when you are creating a character with a single Alternate Form, that form costs 15 pts plus 90% of the racial template of that form. This is well and good so far.

However, enhancements to the Shapeshifting ability apply to the total point cost (15+90%), right? So any enhancements that increase the cost more than 1/9th (ie, bring the underlying racial cost up over 100% of its original value) will make any advantage earmarked just for the alternate form cost more than it would cost if you took it to be shared between both forms.

Or am I reading it wrongly?

Ack

[Sam Baughn]

No, looks to me like you are reading it correctly except that the base cost is 15 points plus 90% of the difference between the alternative form and your current one (which is probably what you meant, but not exactly what you said, so I felt it was best to make sure that you knew that).

[Harald B]

You seem to be reading it right. However this is a bit of a non-issue as most people will take enough limitations to keep that from happening. Also, you can (probably) put advantages in the racial template that are not available as personal advantages.

[Ack]

except that the base cost is 15 points plus 90% of the difference between the alternative form and your current one

Yeah, like I said, the racial template.

And I do understand that certain abilities may only be available in an alternate form - but I still think it's counter-intuitive to make it easier to give an ability to both forms rather than to just the more powerful one.

EDIT: I like to take certain abilities for shapeshifters, such as Reduced Time, Reciprocal Rest and Non-Reciprocal Damage (total +100%). All very handy, but none of which really escalate the utility of an ability used only by the more powerful alternate form.

Ack

[Sam Baughn]

If you want to add enhancements to your alternative form, the best way to keep the points cost down is to make the most expensive form the default and take the less powerful one as the alternative form. If, on the other hand, you have more limitations than enhancements, it would generally be better to make the default form the less expensive template (assuming that you only have two forms - otherwise it gets a bit complicated).

[vitruvian]

If you want to add enhancements to your alternative form, the best way to keep the points cost down is to make the most expensive form the default and take the less powerful one as the alternative form.

This is a very good point. Of course, it doesn't fit a lot of character concepts, and you get the strange situation where it costs *more* to have your base form (which you revert to when asleep, unconscious, etc.) be the weaker of your forms, when it seems like the reverse would be true.

Two things to try - have enhancements apply only to the *base* cost for either Alternate Form or Morph, or always take the most powerful form as the one that pays for the Shapeshifting, with a 0 point Feature or even a Quirk "weaker form is actually base form". Most GMs should allow this, at least as a Feature or Quirk, so long as it fits character concept and actually has the effect of making the character a little weaker; it certainly passes the munchkin test.

Therefore, you'd buy Captain Marvel as the base form, with an Alternate Form with lots of enhancements (Reduced Time, etc.), since otherwise you'd be paying double or worse for powers like superstrength, flight, etc.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Ack

As I understand things, when you are creating a character with a single Alternate Form, that form costs 15 pts plus 90% of the racial template of that form. This is well and good so far.

However, enhancements to the Shapeshifting ability apply to the total point cost (15+90%), right? So any enhancements that increase the cost more than 1/9th (ie, bring the underlying racial cost up over 100% of its original value) will make any advantage earmarked just for the alternate form cost more than it would cost if you took it to be shared between both forms.

Actually, if you look throughout Characters, it's a big question mark. Nowhere do the rules say whether or not modifiers should be applied to the "racial surcharge" as well as the base cost. Kromm has stated in private email that no, you don't apply any modifiers to the surcharge, just to the base cost of Shapeshifting. I imagine he'll throw a line into Powers to clarify that.

Fantasy assumed that you were to apply modifiers to the surcharge, but that's been errata'd, so it's now quite official:

http://www.sjgames.com/errata/gurps/4e/fantasy.html

[Dragondog]

At first I didn't understand what you were talking about. For if we assume that 15p + 90% is less than what it would cost to give it to both forms. If you added enhancements, it would still be less than giving it to both forms wtih the same enhancements.

But as I continued to read I get the feeling that the added enhancements are such that wouldn't be needed if the Character had them in both forms. If this is the case, I would still have the normal form as the base form, even if it was weaker, and then use a Limitation, Accessible only in other Form, to the cost to have it in both forms and set that as some sort of maximum cost.

And if it's a mix of both, I would make sure that "not needed" Enhancements have a cost less than this maximum and that would fix it.

[vitruvian]

But as I continued to read I get the feeling that the added enhancements are such that wouldn't be needed if the Character had them in both forms. If this is the case, I would still have the normal form as the base form, even if it was weaker, and then use a Limitation, Accessible only in other Form, to the cost to have it in both forms and set that as some sort of maximum cost.

We're talking about things like Reduced Time 4 +80%, in order to be able to change in 1 second rather than 10. If that applies to the 'additional cost' as well as to the base Shapeshifting, it will always be more expensive than just having the ability in both forms.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

We're talking about things like Reduced Time 4 +80%, in order to be able to change in 1 second rather than 10. If that applies to the 'additional cost' as well as to the base Shapeshifting, it will always be more expensive than just having the ability in both forms.

The counterpoint is that advantages would be cheaper to buy individually than as part of an alternate form that you can only become when certain conditions are met (such as "only at night -40%").

While it may be more complicated, it seems that limitations (at least some) should go against the form cost (the 90% of the racial difference) while most enhancements should go against the base (15 cost).