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Old 09-04-2007, 07:27 AM   #1
Moe Lane
 
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Default New collaborative netbook idea - The Devil Himself

I haven't done something like this in a while, but there was a reasonably good response the last time that I did. Input welcome: everything's still up in the air, mind you.

The Devil Himself
A Campaign setting for GURPS WWII: Weird War and GURPS In Nomine

The world ended on May 19, 1940. It was either that or permit Baal to simply wipe out Notre Dame.

There are some who would claim that the world ended in 1935, when the Demon Prince of the War secretly took control of the Nazi regime from the inside; or in 1937, when Heaven did the same to the government of France; or even in 1938, when celestial interference in the invasion of China reached what some naively considered to be outrageous levels. It is generally agreed, however, that the Host's blatant intervention on the battlefields of France and Belgium had additional consequences than saving the former from Infernal occupation. It also wrecked forever the illusion that humanity was free to save or damn itself on its own. Both sides felt that they were now clear to act as openly as they chose.

It is now 1943, and the gloves are completely off.

The Players

The Axis

Nazi Germany
His rule stretching from Flanders to Moscow, Hanover to Milan, Baal at last controls the mortal realm that he has always desired: save that it is, perhaps, still a touch too small. His armies, both mortal and infernal, fight and kill to change that. Many of them even do so voluntarily, for bloodlust's sake... and because, when all is said and done, Baal is no Josef Stalin.

The Japanese/Chinese Empire
Every side in the original struggle for China (there were at least four among the Chinese alone) were incensed when Nybbas (who seems remarkably unconcerned with being called the Gaijin Prince) casually manifested in 1940 and took over. But the Chinese and the Japanese gods bowed to him, and so the situation must be for now tolerated.

The Allies

The British Empire
The British have found themselves in an interesting situation. On the one hand, they control several areas which have turned out to be the homes of exceptionally powerful ethereal pantheons. On the other hand, said pantheons are not precisely well-disposed towards the British. On another hand, while there are apparently no Anglican Archangels there are at least two Muslim ones, at least one of whom has his own issues with the British Empire. On still another hand everyone involved at least seems to recognize that the British are the ones keeping the legions of fanatics and/or zombies away. This all leads to a very polite, very correct and very, very strained relationship as everyone attempts to keep the whole convoluted structure from falling down.

France
Still in the fight, and shaking off the last vestiges of the defeatism and malaise that almost doomed her, France is a beacon of light in the darkness. And all it took was the replacement of the Republic with a militant Catholic theocracy, complete with a reincarnated Empress possessed of a supremely medieval mindset. It is, to be fair, an extremely just and reasonably tolerant militant Catholic theocracy.

The United States of America
Some countries are fortunate: they have Fifth Columns that merely strive to create defeat. The United States has a Fifth Column dedicated towards victory, by any means - whether necessary or unnecessary, and indeed the latter is preferred. In other words, Vaputech cells are everywhere.

The Independents

The Soviets
Stalin lives, if you can call it 'living'. Dread Lord Saminga's gifts have a terrible price - although Stalin himself found the transition to mummy easy enough. In his new state he oversees the final transformation of the Soviet Union into the perfect Communist State: for when all are dead, all are finally equal.

Italy and Greece
It says something about the National Socialists that so many of them found intolerable the idea that their regime had been taken over by a Demon Prince who had once masqueraded as a Semitic deity. Mussolini welcomed them all, the better to keep the Host from doing to him what they did to Franco. They, and the extremely reluctant support of Greece - and her pantheon, and the allies of her pantheon - keep the Fascists a going concern, at least for the moment.

The South Americans
The one area not actively involved in warfare, and the one subject to the most profound long-term changes. However, it's being done quietly, as various ethereal pantheons gingerly test the limits of the ban.

State of World War II in 1943

Europe
France remains a going concern as a country, thanks to British troops and wholesale revision of its military and social system by the Host. The border is more or less garrisoned and fortified: southern Belgium is a wasteland. Portugal and Spain are both officially allied with the French as fellow-Catholics; the latter is unstable. The infrastructure of Great Britain is in roughly the same state as during our timeline; its Blitz was shorter, yet done much more competently. Germany occupies all other European countries in this timeline as it did during its peak years in ours, with the addition of Sweden, Finland, and Turkey, and the exception of southern Italy and Greece. It also controls Russian territory to about sixty miles west of Moscow, and is still expanding southwards.

Africa/Middle East
Baal prefers to do his major fighting with the Allies in this theater. The fighting is much more fluid in this history than in our own; most territory is easy to take, much harder to hold. The Host has, by necessity, almost forcibly reintegrated Khalid and his Servitors back into alignment with Heaven. It will be some time before the ill feelings pass regarding that action - assuming of course that they actually do.


Pacific/East Asia
The Japanese have managed to keep most of their conquests, thanks to their master's ability to co-opt local spirit populations (and generally better managerial techniques). Australia is unconquered, and increasingly less likely to be conquered, but India is considered to be the more important frontline anyway. The Americans still have Midway and Hawaii: Nybbas saw little point in bothering with the Aleutians.
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Last edited by Moe Lane; 09-04-2007 at 07:31 AM.
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Old 09-04-2007, 09:00 AM   #2
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Default Re: New collaborative netbook idea - The Devil Himself

I think you're going to need new rules for Tethers...
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Old 09-04-2007, 11:19 AM   #3
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Default Re: New collaborative netbook idea - The Devil Himself

I think you're going to need new rules for Tethers...

Very possibly. Care to elaborate? :)
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:21 PM   #4
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Default Re: New collaborative netbook idea - The Devil Himself

Neat idea. Couple of issues that need to be dealt with:
1) Pope. With France being a more religiously aligned Catholic State than anything outside Italy in the last 500 years, the situation with the Pope is Critical. I see a couple of issues. First, did the election of Pope Pius XII in February 1939 go off as in our timeline or not. I could see massive interference from both sides. And where is he? If Hell won, then the Pope stays in Rome. If Heaven won then the Pope probably fled to Avignon. If no interference or a draw, who knows?

2) Minor Allies. I see that Baal has Sweden, Finland and Turkey that he didn't in OTL (Our TimeLine). Do the minor allies like the Finns have any degree of independence like they did in OTL or are they all treated the way that the Poles were in OTL.

3) Switzerland. With the gloves off, are the Swiss at least Allies/Heaven oriented?

4) Africa. Has Rommel been kicked out of North Africa yet?

5) Buddhism. Just how ticked is the Buddhist pantheon over "losing China"? Enough to truly ally with Heaven (or least Blandine?)

6) Hinduism. Does the Hindu Pantheon feel that it is in better shape than the Buddhists? If so, then India will definitely fight. If not, the Allies have a significant problem.
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Old 09-04-2007, 04:48 PM   #5
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Default Re: New collaborative netbook idea - The Devil Himself

Interesting idea Moe. :)

My first question is about Khalid and his Servitors. I never read Superiors 3 but I gather that Khalid's split with the Host during the Crusades was pretty bitter. If he's been found and forced back into service, how badly does he resent his peers? Is it a Jordi-level standoffishness? The openly derisive and hostile attitude between War and Judgment (or Judgment and Fire)? Or is it worse, with orders to angels of Faith getting "lost in translation" and Tethers of Faith being "closed for cleaning" when a Laurencian is being chased by a pack of Calabim?

What of Magog? If Hell is openly walking the Earth and Khalid is back (however unwillingly) with the Host, would the runoff from a prolonged WWII be enough to break what was left of the seal on the Prince of Cruelty? If so, how would he get in on things?

How is Nybbas powerful enough to influence the pantheons? Wouldn't the media (and The Media) be less powerful during WWII? Beleth, on the other hand, should be profiting nicely from all the terror war brings.

How would Alaemon and Mammon be faring? Secrets would normally flourish in wartime, but with the biggest secret, that of the War, blown, would Alaemon be acting relatively more openly in intelligence-gathering now? Similarly, did Mammon get slapped down in 1929?

It seems to me that Jordi might be more active in this timeline, especially in animal rescue in wartorn areas and in turning animals against invading humans.

Naraht's question brings up something. What are the Tsayadim up to? Are they going after "traitor" Ethereals? Similarly, I could envision some of the more militant ethereals deciding that now was the time to break free of the shackles of Heaven and Hell both, possibly introducing yet another front to the War on Earth.
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Old 09-04-2007, 04:52 PM   #6
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Default Re: New collaborative netbook idea - The Devil Himself

*just sort of stares at Moe, in awe and bogglement*
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Old 09-04-2007, 05:19 PM   #7
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Default Re: New collaborative netbook idea - The Devil Himself

1) Pope. With France being a more religiously aligned Catholic State than anything outside Italy in the last 500 years, the situation with the Pope is Critical. I see a couple of issues. First, did the election of Pope Pius XII in February 1939 go off as in our timeline or not. I could see massive interference from both sides. And where is he? If Hell won, then the Pope stays in Rome. If Heaven won then the Pope probably fled to Avignon. If no interference or a draw, who knows?

The thought of a Second Avignon Papacy interests me, so we'll go with that.

2) Minor Allies. I see that Baal has Sweden, Finland and Turkey that he didn't in OTL (Our TimeLine). Do the minor allies like the Finns have any degree of independence like they did in OTL or are they all treated the way that the Poles were in OTL.

I'm thinking that everybody in Baal's empire is being treated more or less equally... which came as a rather rude surprise to the Germans, and a definite relief to, say, the Poles. The conquered areas are being hammered, but the DP of the War treats oppression as a tool, not a goal. And there's always Saminga to serve as reminder that things could be worse (I expect that he and Baal are usually one good incident away from going to war with each other).

3) Switzerland. With the gloves off, are the Swiss at least Allies/Heaven oriented?

Off the top of my head? Marc and David are having... issues, which the Swiss are just starting to notice.


4) Africa. Has Rommel been kicked out of North Africa yet?


And what fun is that? :)

5) Buddhism. Just how ticked is the Buddhist pantheon over "losing China"? Enough to truly ally with Heaven (or least Blandine?)

Not an issue: Buddhism doesn't generate ethereals, IIRC.

6) Hinduism. Does the Hindu Pantheon feel that it is in better shape than the Buddhists? If so, then India will definitely fight. If not, the Allies have a significant problem.


Given that their alternatives are a), Baal; and b), Saminga, I think that they are going with the Allies. Reluctantly. Very reluctantly.
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Old 09-04-2007, 05:29 PM   #8
Moe Lane
 
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Default Re: New collaborative netbook idea - The Devil Himself

My first question is about Khalid and his Servitors. I never read Superiors 3 but I gather that Khalid's split with the Host during the Crusades was pretty bitter. If he's been found and forced back into service, how badly does he resent his peers? Is it a Jordi-level standoffishness? The openly derisive and hostile attitude between War and Judgment (or Judgment and Fire)? Or is it worse, with orders to angels of Faith getting "lost in translation" and Tethers of Faith being "closed for cleaning" when a Laurencian is being chased by a pack of Calabim?

I'm going to say somewhere between (Animals/everybody else) and (War/Judgment) levels of lack of cooperation, with the specter of Things Could Easily Get Worse Fast over everybody's head. Individual angels and Seneschals would find it not too difficult to be nastier - or nicer.

What of Magog? If Hell is openly walking the Earth and Khalid is back (however unwillingly) with the Host, would the runoff from a prolonged WWII be enough to break what was left of the seal on the Prince of Cruelty? If so, how would he get in on things?


Be a shame if he missed the party, no?

How is Nybbas powerful enough to influence the pantheons? Wouldn't the media (and The Media) be less powerful during WWII? Beleth, on the other hand, should be profiting nicely from all the terror war brings.


Beleth would be doing fine, yup; as for Nybbas, remember: Propaganda's the Bomb, baby. For both sides, too. Buy war bonds!

How would Alaemon and Mammon be faring? Secrets would normally flourish in wartime, but with the biggest secret, that of the War, blown, would Alaemon be acting relatively more openly in intelligence-gathering now? Similarly, did Mammon get slapped down in 1929?

I think that Secrets and Greed would still be running on autopilot, and that Mammon's on track to die gloriously in the service of Hell.

It seems to me that Jordi might be more active in this timeline, especially in animal rescue in wartorn areas and in turning animals against invading humans.

Particularly in the rather remote areas that a lot of WWII went on in, yah, you betcha.

Naraht's question brings up something. What are the Tsayadim up to? Are they going after "traitor" Ethereals? Similarly, I could envision some of the more militant ethereals deciding that now was the time to break free of the shackles of Heaven and Hell both, possibly introducing yet another front to the War on Earth.

The Tsayadim are probably... I don't know what would be the neatest thing for them to do, actually. But there's going to be a good deal of violation of the Ban, yawp.

Moe

PS: Thanks for your and Naraht's thoughts, by the way.
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Old 09-04-2007, 06:19 PM   #9
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Default Re: New collaborative netbook idea - The Devil Himself

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysteris
How is Nybbas powerful enough to influence the pantheons? Wouldn't the media (and The Media) be less powerful during WWII?
The power of propaganda was at its pinnacle in the 1940s. Never before or since was so much money and effort devoted to disseminating the Party Line, never before or since have the world's press and artists been under such exacting discipline, never before or since have people had so much faith in the official story. The Media was big and, more importantly, it was thought to be big.
Quote:
Similarly, did Mammon get slapped down in 1929?
I have long believed that World War II was Mammon's idea from the beginning. With the developed economies collapsing due to (clearly) too much sentimentalism and state welfare and not enough hard-head business sense, with the USSR industrialising in a way that infuriatingly owed more to the Game than to Greed, and most importantly with his own personal holdings decimated, Mammon was desperate for an economic revival. How he longed for his heydey in the 18th and 19th century, the days of robber barons and frontier law and unfettered initiative, the days when savvy businessmen could make such a killing they would end up in possession of Rhodesia, or the Congo, or even India.

Reinvigorating the world's economy meant reinvigorating imperialism, the quintessence of financial success. It was time the vigorous and resourceful Japanese had a chance to exploit the immense natural and human resources of China. And the sooner the unimportant countries of Eastern Europe and the aberrant remains of the Russian Empire were subordinated to German discipline and efficiency, the better. This would of course have a salutary effect on the older imperial powers, and not just by teaching them new, modern strategies for economic and political domination. Britain, France, America and the rest would wake up to the competition, and they would have to try that bit harder in exploiting their own possessions. Such was the Generous Prince's pipedream.

Since Mammon, especially in the 1930s, did not have the resources to throw the world into conflict, we must ask who else was involved. Baal is the obvious suspect, but of course his aims would be different: he would want to get the British and French empires involved as deeply and as quickly as possible, and preferably the USA too. Malphas too would hardly need to be asked to stir up nationalistic hatred and strife. Beleth, Kronos, Saminga, Vapula and Valefor might all see merits in new colonialist wars. But the fascist apparatus of control suggests an intriguing possibility, that Asmodeus was persuaded to play both sides of the game - army against army, state against state, spy against spy, dictator against dictator. Was his attachment to Soviet bureaucracy so shallow rooted he was content to risk its overthrow? Or did the calculating Djinn foresee the Cold War, the Warsaw Pact, even the Cultural Revolution?

And what of The Devil Himself?
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Old 09-04-2007, 08:59 PM   #10
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Default Re: New collaborative netbook idea - The Devil Himself

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moe Lane
I think you're going to need new rules for Tethers...

Very possibly. Care to elaborate? :)
No, but only because I don't have a rulebook that goes into much detail about them. But putting rules aside for the moment...

Well, God was willing to change the rules of the game at least once; I suspect He might do so again, and Humanity learning the truth about the War might make Him do it. Given that you're so gleefully factionalizing Corporeal territories, I think the Eden Ban is a necessity to give the notion of territory any real bite. In fact, you won't have to do much more than that; it should be comparatively easy to disrupt Tether formation for *any* parties you don't approve of.

In fact... you can actually disrupt Tethers with nothing more than full-page newspaper advertisements, announcing the location of the forming Tether and the factional alignments of the entity it will benefit. It's hard to *believe* in your kitchen table, and the conscious knowledge of the implications of your belief will interfere with that same belief...

... which means that while Fate and Destiny may be conscious choices, Tether formation could be an *unconscious* choice, which would actually help explain why Lucifer was onboard with God about the "don't tell the mortals" bit.

Which means that Tether formation is going to get increasingly random and unpredictable... which means that, coupled with corporeal knowledge of celestial secrets, means that widespread use of Disturbance-causing songs, relics, and hamburgers isn't far behind... meaning what Tether formation remains will become even MORE unpredictable... which in turn does make you wonder if there's a force Tether formation equalizes, and *which way that force pushes*.

Rooting around for other people's ideas, I also recall... yes, we may want to revisit the Project Silence files; in fact, aren't we just four years ahead of the Majestic-12 team?

I wonder if the whole mess is enough to make that dopey grin Yves always sports flicker? And -- I am surprised Faith is on board; I'd figure he'd end up in the same cell as Dominic. I'll bet you money the Tribunal isn't running on all thrusters right now. It'd take God to alter Dominic's operating instructions. William Keith once wrote up an English translation of the Laws of Heaven; he posited (and I don't know if this is canon) that Dominic would bow to the Judgement of the Seraphim Council... but if he doesn't think they're *right*, there's going to be a problem. It's entirely possible that Dominic would view *any* tactical advantage in the War as secondary to keeping humans from
knowing of Heaven, again per God's instructions. I suppose it depends on exactly what God said, and what (if anything) he later clarified after Dominic caught up to Michael standing over the flattened German army with a broken axe haft and a sheepish look on his face.

(Rambling, aren't I?)
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