Is a 5th Edition coming soon? [Answer: NO, it isn't!]

[Lonewulf]

Originally Posted by lambda

Well, it doesn't make sense in anything approaching a realistic game, but in a cinematic/epic fantasy sort of game, you generally want your legendary fighters to be able to kill dozens of enemies in seconds.

Now, me, I prefer somewhat grittier, more realistic combat if I'm going to be bothering with calculating damage, hit points, etc. If I want epic combat, I should just have some kind of "epic combat" aspect and just be able to say that I waste 30 mooks at once, unless I'm going up against someone else who's capable of epic combat.

I love Beowulf and Roland for that.

Roland kept on fighting EVEN THOUGH HIS BRAINS WERE SPILLING OUT! Epic as hell, and demonstrates the D&D ultra hit point system beautifully.

Beowulf kept on talking for a long time EVEN THOUGH his throat was bitten out by a dragon. Not to mention all the other crazy stuff he did in his past.

Ah, fun stories, fun stories.

[Captain-Captain]

There is a comedy bit called "Law & Orcdom" that mixes D&D with Law & Order. The killer, in this instance used a 3.0 broken rule to toss 28 snails over his victim then use Whirlwind/Great Cleave to make 28 attacks on the victim.

The detectives not the rules in 3.5 forbid this. However discussion about this on a forum brought out the fact that the 3.5 rules do NOT actually explicitly forbid it. They merely make a strong suggestion not to allow them to be used together.

WotC knows it's audience. There are 8 "My character is totally awesome with this ability!" types for every person who is disgusted by these things, and the majority of disgusted types don't have any real alternative but to keep playing D&D.

Edit: http://www.slangdesign.com/rppr/laworcdom.mp3 They also have a transcript of the bit at: http://slangdesign.com/rppr/?p=22

[Fish]

It's depressing that it's taken D&D until 4th Edition to tip to the fact that encounters doesn't have to mean combat. One of the highly touted features is that the system is designed to help create non-combat encounters.

Don't get me wrong, I like some parts of D&D — mainly the three core books — but I worry that the D&D Munchkins will be saying, "I Diplomacy everybody in the bar. How much XP is that?"

[Pmandrekar]

Originally Posted by Agemegos

Unless they are prepared to abandon the whole mess, that is.

I bailed out from 1st edition AD&D, and clambered aboard The Fantasy Trip. That was in 1982.

I agree. Sophisticated and clever gamers can always try out different systems, and if they are disgusted with an existing game, nobody forces them to play it.

I play D20 from time to time primarily because my group wanders that way. I've also gamed in Storyteller with them. When we've played GURPS, some of them grouse about the game. Their characters aren't tough enough, they don't like this or that about the system. Fair enough. All of us have different things that we like or dislike about the rules sets that we play.

I am encouraged that several of my regular group are willing to give GURPS 4th a try. I hope they will enjoy it as much as I do.

-P.

[Lonewulf]

Originally Posted by Pmandrekar

I play D20 from time to time primarily because my group wanders that way. I've also gamed in Storyteller with them. When we've played GURPS, some of them grouse about the game. Their characters aren't tough enough, they don't like this or that about the system. Fair enough. All of us have different things that we like or dislike about the rules sets that we play..

If they want tougher characters, up their starting CP totals and give them some "tough guy" templates and lenses to help them out. Magic-based ablative force DR might be perfect, for instance, depending on their character concept; either that, or enchanted armor/weapons.

That's just a tip. It sounds like they're after a pretty high-powered campaign, so you could start them off with, say, 150 points (which is rather high powered), tell them to come up with disadvantages, and then tell them that they're, say, equivalent to level 5+ to D&D characters. That way, they'll have an idea of what to expect.

[Pmandrekar]

Originally Posted by Lonewulf

If they want tougher characters, up their starting CP totals and give them some "tough guy" templates and lenses to help them out. Magic-based ablative force DR might be perfect, for instance, depending on their character concept; either that, or enchanted armor/weapons.

That's just a tip. It sounds like they're after a pretty high-powered campaign, so you could start them off with, say, 150 points (which is rather high powered), tell them to come up with disadvantages, and then tell them that they're, say, equivalent to level 5+ to D&D characters. That way, they'll have an idea of what to expect.

Well, that's some of my players. Others are perfectly happy to drag along their one bad foot on 50 CP's. Welcome to my world.

I know how to scale the powerlevel up with CP's, I have been playing GURPs for 12 years. The core of this problem is that my players have different expectations for what they're doing in campaigns. Some of them are Power Gamers, and Butt Kickers others are Method Actors, and getting a single campaign that will satisfy their simultaneous needs for being powerful, but still getting the best of their environments is tricky.

Some of my players ask me to run adventures at higher levels, but then grouse that the opposition is stiffer. Others want challenges.

One of the problems with running campaigns in GURPS (for my group) is that some of my players are so used to playing D&D, and have so many of the monsters memorized (in terms of their combat abilities) that there is very little tension in a D&D combat encounter. Either you know that you can wipe out 8 Bugbears, or you know they'll wipe the party out (and will know to flee). Instead, with GURPS, depending on the campaign style and setting, and how the opposition is built, it's not always clear to them whether they will be victorious in a given encounter... So, they decide that to hedge against the uncertainty, they need more CP's.

I've played D&D in cases where the big Bad encounter at the end of a long module was taken down in three combat rounds. Poof! you win!

I prefer to GM with a bit more tension, and with opponents that aren't statted out. A well-run team of Goblins can take down even the mightiest warrior, if the warrior isn't on his toes.

-P.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Pmandrekar

One of the problems with running campaigns in GURPS (for my group) is that some of my players are so used to playing D&D, and have so many of the monsters memorized (in terms of their combat abilities) that there is very little tension in a D&D combat encounter. Either you know that you can wipe out 8 Bugbears, or you know they'll wipe the party out (and will know to flee). Instead, with GURPS, depending on the campaign style and setting, and how the opposition is built, it's not always clear to them whether they will be victorious in a given encounter... So, they decide that to hedge against the uncertainty, they need more CP's.

To me, this is one of the paradoxes of preferences as applied to gaming. Of course you would prefer to have exciting encounters. But you don't want your character to die, either. So you either study up on the possible adversaries, or buy up your character's abilities to cover every possible contingency, like the White Knight with mousetraps on his horse. And you end up with a character who's not threatened by any foes he runs into, or with an entire party of such characters. And now there's not much excitement in playing; "kill the monster, grab the treasure, level up" becomes a routine.

Bill Stoddard

[NeverCool]

Originally Posted by whswhs

And now there's not much excitement in playing; "kill the monster, grab the treasure, level up" becomes a routine.

Well.... there is Munchkin! I always wondered what extensive exposure to that game would do to a bunch of die-hard D&D dungeoneers....

[Pmandrekar]

Originally Posted by whswhs

To me, this is one of the paradoxes of preferences as applied to gaming. Of course you would prefer to have exciting encounters. But you don't want your character to die, either. So you either study up on the possible adversaries, or buy up your character's abilities to cover every possible contingency, like the White Knight with mousetraps on his horse. And you end up with a character who's not threatened by any foes he runs into, or with an entire party of such characters. And now there's not much excitement in playing; "kill the monster, grab the treasure, level up" becomes a routine.

Bill Stoddard

I'm glad that someone else recognizes that there's no point in playing a game where you are guaranteed to survive, and gain in power and experience ad nauseum.

I'm going to try something where players don't level up quite as fast, but with a lot of action and adventure in GURPS. That's up next.

-P.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by NeverCool

Well.... there is Munchkin! I always wondered what extensive exposure to that game would do to a bunch of die-hard D&D dungeoneers....

It encourages them.