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Old 02-28-2007, 04:12 PM   #21
Kaldrin
 
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Default Re: Un-nerfed Mages

Quote:
Originally Posted by Extrarius
You really need to explain what you find wrong with them to get more help. You say they're not doing enough damage, but why not? There are plenty of very high damage spells, and plenty of spells that can do several dice of damage every turn that cost very little with decent skill (the __ jet spells, for example). If you have a 3v3, for example, have 2 fighters each fight one person and the mage stands back and makes a 9d fireball and takes out the third (31 average damage should AT LEAST knock him out) in 4 seconds.
There's also a lot of spells that completely remove combatants from a conflict without doing any damage, those that inflict penalties to enemies, those that give bonuses to allies.... using raw damage is a poor gauge when so many other options are available. I love the Mind and Light & Darkness colleges for their non-lethal ways.
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Old 02-28-2007, 04:38 PM   #22
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Default Re: Un-nerfed Mages

Indeed, it would seem that a serious mage would consider getting into a situation where base explosions are the best solution a personal failure, but it is a matter of personality.
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Old 02-28-2007, 06:14 PM   #23
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Default Re: Un-nerfed Mages

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Originally Posted by PoweredByCoffee
For those of you questioning the ability of warriors to deal out damage, you might want to look a little closer. I don't have any materials in front of me right now, but they can swing with NO fatigue cost. In GURPS, mages simply cannot deal damage like warriors.. even if you make a mage dedicate to the application of damage. I'm not sure how anyone can argue against that. Even if a mage can spit out a 3d damage per turn, he can't do it as long as warrior can.
Yeah, but we're also looking at combat timescales. It doesn't really matter whether a warrior could chop away for several hours if battles only last a matter of seconds, so their ability to do so is kinda moot. And a warrior can't deliver a 9d attack to the big boss, let alone build it up while hiding around a corner, or start a combat with it (think Explosive Fireball).. the mage can.

Still.. it really sounds like you're looking for a guy who can participate in combat just like a warrior, except he's called a "war wizard" or some such and kills with fireballs or arcane death bolts or something instead of swords and axes. In that case, give him an IA, pretend it's "war magic", and you should get what you seem to want.
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Old 02-28-2007, 06:57 PM   #24
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Default Re: Un-nerfed Mages

Thanks again for your responses! They are all very insightful. Special thanks to Robert Conley for his indepth response.

I suppose I should have been more clear in my initial post about my problem statement. "Nerf" was definitely the wrong term. I'm a tester by profession and naturally skeptical. In my campaign, I asked my player to create a mundane character using around 150-200 points (don't remember exactly). The idea was that he learns that he is a mage and slowly grows in power over the course of several adventures.

The problem is not the lack of powerful spells, its the fact that he runs out of fatigue so quickly. He has about 12 fatigue points to play with right now (12 HT). Rules say that he can increase his fatigue by 30% to 15. They also say that his is reduced to 1/3 (odd this isn't relative to HT), he is at half move and half dodge. So at his best (i.e. without increasing HT), he has about 9 mana points to work with without resting. This means that he can hurl a 9 point fireball but is this devistated. That's assuming that he doesn't cast other spells such as healing all the party.

I'm not worried about game balance. My players are all mature.. (uhm, take that back -hee hee) and aren't too concerned about balance. I guess what I'm asking for here is a cinematic mage.. one that isn't constantly bogged down by fatigue.

Based on this, if anyone has any more feedback, I'll gladly read it.
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Old 02-28-2007, 07:16 PM   #25
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Default Re: Un-nerfed Mages

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoweredByCoffee
(1) Mitigate the enormous range penalty of non-touch regular spells by increasing the range incriment by their level of magery. (I.e. range penalty = range/magery rounded up)
I got this idea from another post which used a similar concept but skill instead of magery (sorry can't find it for linking). I prefer not to use skill as the limit for range because I don't want to totally negate the cost of range, just minimize it.
Back in my 1st edition GURPS days, I ran a game without any range penalties on spells. None. You were limited to LOS or a specific unseen spot (a specific hex) at an additional -5. Otherwise, you could cast, say, Create Fire 100 yards away with no skill penalties. Worked fine, but that group was much less "push the limits until they squeal" than my subsequent groups have been.

The by-Magery level seems workable. It'll certainly improve the range of your standard Magery 3 types.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoweredByCoffee
(3) Go with a modified version of S John's unlimited mana rules at http://www.io.com/~sjohn/unlimited-mana.htm. I'd prefer not to use the calamity rules in favor of spell points that are limited by 5x or 10x the wizard's magery level. The great thing about this is that it allows the mage to sling some powerful spells, but I don't want to keep track of a separate recovery (other than fatigue).
Same early game, I did a similar thing based on a combination of IQ, points in spells, and Magery...making really skilled wizards (lots of spells or just lots of points in a few spells) more powerful. I didn't allow any draw on fatigue. In 4e, I'd do this by limiting magic to an Energy Reserve only, and then giving all mages a maximum purchase limit on that ER of some multiple of their Magery. 10x Magery, or 1 per cp in Magery (so 15, 25, etc.) or something of the sort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoweredByCoffee
(4) Allow/encourage the mage to purchase magic-only fatigue and allow him to exceed the 30% HP limit (B16). (I think I saw this option in the rules somewhere.. Hmm... Was this from 3e?)
3e had 2/level Extra FP (Magic Only). 4e it's -0%, but the FP you buy this way is only useable for magic, not for anything else. Search the forums, there are a few threads on this and Kromm chimes in on the balance of it.

I think the issue with mages is they are very, very versitile, so if you add power they should pay for it. Buy the pool of energy, suffer some limitation or additional cost on Magery if they get reduced range penalties, or have a much more limited spell selection. The 1st ed game I ran with the No Range Penalties and fairly big (20-30 point) pools of spell points was very mage-dominated. This fit, as it was a D&Dish game run in the Forgotten Realms with big swirling magical battles and freakish monsters dealing spells like a Vegas blackjack dealer. But it did mean mages were tactically powerful and very diversely powerful as well.
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Old 02-28-2007, 07:26 PM   #26
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Default Re: Un-nerfed Mages

Deathtouch and Throw Spell. So you can have a missile spell do damage and DR is ignored.
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Old 02-28-2007, 07:33 PM   #27
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Default Re: Un-nerfed Mages

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoweredByCoffee
[...]Based on this, if anyone has any more feedback, I'll gladly read it.
Buy flame jet to 20. Do 2d damage every single round with no fatigue cost.
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Old 02-28-2007, 07:49 PM   #28
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Default Re: Un-nerfed Mages

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoweredByCoffee
I suppose I should have been more clear in my initial post about my problem statement. "Nerf" was definitely the wrong term. I'm a tester by profession and naturally skeptical. In my campaign, I asked my player to create a mundane character using around 150-200 points (don't remember exactly). The idea was that he learns that he is a mage and slowly grows in power over the course of several adventures.
and you basis, is an unfair basis. it like say to the Warrior, build a 150-200 point chart that is not designed to be a warrior, and we will slow make you a warrior from there.

While the IS point to the concept, especially in a Supers game, ie build you Average Joe [which is 25-75 point range], then we will add you exception qualities from there.

and you have to do this will All concepts to be a far comparison.
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Old 02-28-2007, 09:05 PM   #29
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Default Re: Un-nerfed Mages

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoweredByCoffee
Thanks again for your responses! They are all very insightful. Special thanks to Robert Conley for his indepth response.

I suppose I should have been more clear in my initial post about my problem statement. "Nerf" was definitely the wrong term. I'm a tester by profession and naturally skeptical. In my campaign, I asked my player to create a mundane character using around 150-200 points (don't remember exactly). The idea was that he learns that he is a mage and slowly grows in power over the course of several adventures.

The problem is not the lack of powerful spells, its the fact that he runs out of fatigue so quickly. He has about 12 fatigue points to play with right now (12 HT). Rules say that he can increase his fatigue by 30% to 15. .
Don't use that rule. It applies to regular human beings. Or perhaps I should say, it doesn't apply to spell casting energy reserves.

Last edited by David Johnston; 02-28-2007 at 09:11 PM.
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Old 02-28-2007, 09:19 PM   #30
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Default Re: Un-nerfed Mages

Also, artillery mages usually dont need to cast instantly. If you have fighters, or heck even other mages, fighting while one IQ-12 dude with a 10 energy powerstone and Magery-3 build up his level 15 explosive fireball you're going to see some dead people...

Like righteously dead people.

Like if there was a religion, they'd be all "convert now!" and stuff.

Like...golden crispy dead.

Like if god...was hovering above someone...and pointed down and said "I dont like you."

Like Dead




That and other systems (not to attack them or anything) suck.

You throw a fireball in WoW and "bam" oo it does some amount of damage and the enemy fights back.

NOT in gurps.

You throw a fireball at someones face and that NPC is going to take around 3 or 4 damage more or less. At that point he'd be screaming, smacking his face out, and rolling on the floor in terror as he goes blind. "OMG I JUST WENT BLIND MY SKIN WHY DOES MY FLESH BURN AHHHH FLAYED DOOM AHHHHAIOERP:OEWFNafew -gurgle-"

Say you attack somewhere else on the opponent other than his pretty money maker. The torso! *1d fireball'd'd* Let me roll my dice.

Ok 6, there I go rolling the highest damage I can. Well now his clothes are on fire. Lets hope he can cope with a distraction (being on fire), and shock penalties (from damage). 3 damage is enough for a regular sane person to quit a fight. I'm doing double that with my 6, a major wound, and all that other jazz. He'd either drop to the ground and give you a free killing hit or run.

Lets say he doesn't run, lets say he's a psychotic npc from some MMO and decides to keep attacking, against the better wishes of his vital organs...and his mother, and just about anyone else that generally "cares" about him.

The distraction gives -1 to -3, cant remember exactly what being on fire gets you. I'm guessing its a pretty big distraction, considering your on fire and survival tends to do that to people. And then there's the -4 to his roll from those shock penalties. -7 to any attack he's going to make on you. So your mage gets to watch the thief stab himself when he critically fails his meek knife skill and throw another fireball at him.

Since it's high fantasy, you'll probably have enemies like Balrogs and dragons. If thats so then you should have mages with Magery 2-4 and most spells in the 14 to 16 range. 2d fireballs with 1fp and 5 mages throwing fireballs at every body. If your men gang up on large creatures then they'd be doing on average 30 to 40 total damage in their attacking rounds. Your players could be meaner and alternate damage turns. 3 throw their spells this turn, the other 2 the next turn, so your large doom-animal has penalties every turn.

If you dont have just all mages then your large monsters will be dealing with the immediate threats that attack them first (reasonably), so your mages have all the time in the world to build up a good decent fireball that could cook a man in one casting.

Point being, you dont need to "de-nerf" or "un-nerf" the mages. Monsters dont take endless hits like they do in video games or DnD. They take hits painfully. Gurps games are surprisingly mortal as it is already. A 3d hit with a sunbolt against an unarmed target? The end result was 24 damage. I one-shot an assailent after he stabbed me in the lung.

I was rushed to the magical emergency room and my opponent was rushed to the morgue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaldrin
There's also a lot of spells that completely remove combatants from a conflict without doing any damage, those that inflict penalties to enemies, those that give bonuses to allies.... using raw damage is a poor gauge when so many other options are available. I love the Mind and Light & Darkness colleges for their non-lethal ways.
This is also gold. Wizards can be a large pain in the @$$ in so many ways. Body, Movement, Communication, Mind...fireball mage is out of his league.

It takes a bit of work, but most people go Fire Mage in gurps because its easier to get damaging effects without being to creative. Cast blind, sickness, or agonize on an enemy and you wont even have to worry about them.

In High Fantasy, many warriors and mages are likely to have the aid of enchanted weapons, armor, staffs, you name it. You'd have a hard time planning for the things your players could do.
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Last edited by Blood Legend; 02-28-2007 at 10:26 PM.
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