An Open Letter to Paul Chapman and Steve Jackson

[Azog]

Recently, I made the following statement. This statement has been edited for accuracy and to illuminate the context of the argument. Note that this letter, in it's entirety, will be posted to ConSim World in the Ogre folder, as well as to Board Game Geek, on the Ogre and GEV pages.

Originally Posted by Azog

There's definitely a growing segment of the population that would love a compiled, revised, and updated rulesbook, and "modern" counters (actual beefy counters) [of Ogre/GEV]. So many people on places like The Boardgame Geek [regard Ogre/GEV] as "a timeless classic", and there are still thousands of ravenous fans.

One huge, damning fact is that Ogre is 424 on the overall ranking on BGG. And that's out of THOUSANDS of games! And that's not just the wargame ranking, but the ranking among EVERY boardgame on BGG!!!

That says something, for a game that you can't even buy the rules for anymore.

In comparison, "Chez Geek" and "Munchkin", which [Paul Chapman of SJG] tells us accounts for so much of their sales, [rank in the 1600's]. Both Car Wars and Car Wars 5th edition (around 1200) outrank SJ Games cash cow. Deluxe Illuminati sits at 757.

So, what does this say about Ogre/GEV?

The time is ripe for SJ Games to do a proper wargame treatment for Ogre. Look at the popularity of the P-500 lists! (If you don't know what the P-500 lists, say so and I'll describe that to you in enlightening detail).

Paul Chapman, Marketing Director at Steve Jackson Games, replied with this.

Originally Posted by Paul Chapman

Not much. It does say that the ranking system of BGG has no virtually relationship to the sales of a product, however.

Paul,

I'm quite stunned that you would say this. Not because I'm a fanboy for BGG, but rather that you would be so casually dismissive of something as potent as BGG for marketing, or determining publishing decisions.

Secondly, I'm stunned that you would be so dismissive of the feelings of the fans of SJ Games products. You've done this time and time again here on the forums. I can even go as far as saying that you have been openly contemptuous towards our opinions.

Just for the record, I define dimissive as; "feeling or showing that something is unworthy of consideration." I only define this so that there is no mis-understanding in what I am saying.

I can understand that you should always take the opinions of frothing fanboys with a grain of salt. We love Ogre/GEV, and can't understand anyone who might not love it as much as we do. So, I understand why you may not jump to action at our pleading or whining. However...

Sales statistics for the game industry is notoriously lacking in up-front sales figures, so even for a "marketing director" like you, Paul, this information is impossible to find. So it's equally impossible to say, with the certainty that you seemed to possess in your assertion, that BGG ratings have "virtually no relationship to the sales of a product". I can't say that either. I can, however, tell you this.

One thing that the BGG ratings do have a relationship to is the "buzz" on a product, or even more importantly, how the boardgaming and wargaming communities at large feel about a particular product. There are so many people posing opinions, arguments, and counter-arguments that it's not particularly easy to mis-represent how most people feel about any one entry on BGG. The "buzz", then, represents the excitement or good feelings that the majority of the community has about about any specific product.

And "buzz" is what drives sales. Word-of-mouth is the most potent marketing that there is, because it always comes from a relatively trusted source. Look at The Russian Campaign, for example.

The Russian Campaign has long been considered a wargaming classic, much like Ogre/GEV. However, it has -long- since gone out of print. Or, actually it used to be out of print. L2 Design Group revised and reprinted The Russian Campaign. Now, the original TRC sits at rank 254, and the L2 revision sits at 638, as of this writing.

What can this tell me about sales? What it can tell me is that a lot of people liked TRC, and a lot of people like the L2 revision of TRC. How much of a leap can it be for this to translate into sales for L2?

What it really tells me is that the L2 Design Group saw that people loved the product, and places like ConSim World and BGG reflected that. But they knew that they couldn't just re-release the older version. They knew that by taking a loved but out-of-print product, bringing it's rules, mechanics, and art up to date, that they could sell this to a modern market, and capitalize on the buzz that this out-of-print title has generated.

The next bit is to you, Steve Jackson.

Steve, Ogre/GEV deserves a similar treatment, and if you can stop listening to marketing directors who dismiss potent demographics metrics for decision making, then Ogre can cash in on the buzz that it has long held in the wargaming community, and cash in on the potent buzz that organs like Board Game Geek, or ConSim World, generate to new customers the world over.

Retailers predict that board game sales will be twice this year, what it was last year. And with "gateway" wargames and hybrids bringing even more gamers over to wargaming, it's going to be a good year for wargaming as well. I am hoping that SJ Games, and specifically Ogre/GEV will be there for purchase when this new crop of gamers arrive.

Sincerely,
David "Azog" Jackson

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Azog

Sales statistics for the game industry is notoriously lacking in up-front sales figures, so even for a "marketing director" like you, Paul, this information is impossible to find.

Although Paul may not have access to comprehensive sales data across the industry, do keep in mind that he has access to very accurate figures for sales of products published by Steve Jackson Games. And regardless of what ratings on a particular web site may say, Paul and Steve know exactly what brings the money in, which is what they need to keep an eye on in order to keep the lights on in Austin. People at BGG like Ogre better than Munchkin? That's nice; there still weren't enough people actually buying the product to justify keeping it in print. They like Car Wars better than Munchkin? Ditto.

And let's look elsewhere at the site: Advanced Squad Leader's rating appears to be 37. Sounds good. But if BGG's rankings had a meaningful relationship to people actually spending money on games, Multi-Man Publishing would be rolling in dough and have a lot more employees than SJ Games. But it looks like the entire company consists of four part-timers. So, then, even without our knowing anything about precise sales numbers, it looks problematic at best to translate those ratings into real sales.

Moreover, I think you're letting your frustration get the better of you and being very unfair to Paul by setting him up as the arrogant guy who won't listen to customers. As the guy in charge of selling stuff, it most often falls to Paul to give answers, including the ones we don't want to hear. That doesn't mean that he singlehandedly makes those decisions. I'm sure he's got input, of course, but it's SJ's company, and by all accounts he's nothing if not hands-on. To blame anyone other than Steve himself for a publishing decision is misguided at best.

[selenite]

I'm frustrated about Ogre too. But given the stakeholder report I don't think there's any chance they'll add "make new Ogre stuff" to their to do list. So let me suggest something for those feeling frustrated.

The e23 writing page says

Here are some examples of material that we're not actively soliciting, but will respectfully consider if it appears:

* Scenarios for our boardgames, such as Ogre, Frag, and Strange Synergy.

Maybe you (Azog) could put in an e23 proposal for an Ogre scenario pack. Organize a few of the regular contributors to the boards/lists to each write up one scenario. Send in the proposal, and in a few months you should hear back whether SJG thinks it's worth putting some editing man-days into producing a product for Ogre fans to buy. If they're getting the content from others it's a lot easier for them to say "Okay, we'll give this a try."

I don't have the energy to organize this myself, but I can probably come up with a scenario.

[Azog]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

<SNIP>

I'm not going to touch this.

I wrote this letter as one last plea to SJ Games and crew to jump on the bandwagon and harvest some money. The Munchkin popularity won't last forever. Ogre could be a profitable again, but not in the form that it was last published, which is almost identical to the form that it was published in 1984.

The market won't bear a game with sub-standard components, regardless of how well the rules are written. It will, however, pour buckets of money onto a product with good components and well-written rules.

Don't blame Ogre's failure to sell on the game itself, blame it on the cheapness of the package. And what I was suggesting was that they change the package...

And the game will sell.

Azog

[Azog]

Originally Posted by selenite

I'm frustrated about Ogre too. But given the stakeholder report I don't think there's any chance they'll add "make new Ogre stuff" to their to do list. So let me suggest something for those feeling frustrated.

The e23 writing page says
Maybe you (Azog) could put in an e23 proposal for an Ogre scenario pack. Organize a few of the regular contributors to the boards/lists to each write up one scenario. Send in the proposal, and in a few months you should hear back whether SJG thinks it's worth putting some editing man-days into producing a product for Ogre fans to buy. If they're getting the content from others it's a lot easier for them to say "Okay, we'll give this a try."

I don't have the energy to organize this myself, but I can probably come up with a scenario.

I would gladly compile and revise the Ogre/GEV rules, because I think that's what the game needs most right now. That, and a decent set of die-cut counters.

To write up a scenario pack, to sell to a dwindling Ogre fan base, in an effort to convince SJ Games to re-package Ogre/GEV...it just seems kind of futile.

I will consider it, though, and appreciate your input.

Azog

[Paul]

Originally Posted by Azog

I'm quite stunned that you would say this. Not because I'm a fanboy for BGG, but rather that you would be so casually dismissive of something as potent as BGG for marketing, or determining publishing decisions.

Their ratings don't match my sales numbers. I'd hardly call that "casually dismissive." Personally, I'd love for BGG to be a grand predictor; it'd make my job a far sight easier.

Originally Posted by Azog

Secondly, I'm stunned that you would be so dismissive of the feelings of the fans of SJ Games products. You've done this time and time again here on the forums. I can even go as far as saying that you have been openly contemptuous towards our opinions.

Just for the record, I define dimissive as; "feeling or showing that something is unworthy of consideration." I only define this so that there is no mis-understanding in what I am saying.

I'm afraid I'm continuing to misunderstand. How does my finding a lack of relationship between BGG's ratings and my sales reports have anything to do with Ogre fans?

As for "openly contemptuous," I apologize for any indication I've given in that direction. I'm not certain what statements could be characterized as such, but that interpertation is far from the truth. As you may know, one of my first positions within Steve Jackson Games was Ogre Line Editor, as well as Miniatures Division Manager.

Originally Posted by Azog

Sales statistics for the game industry is notoriously lacking in up-front sales figures, so even for a "marketing director" like you, Paul, this information is impossible to find. So it's equally impossible to say, with the certainty that you seemed to possess in your assertion, that BGG ratings have "virtually no relationship to the sales of a product". I can't say that either.

Actually, I can. I'm looking at a report right now which tracked sales by dollars for January - October 2006 (it happens to be left on my desktop, so it's handy).

Car Wars doesn't rank in the top 100 items; the card game (the best selling product of the line) accounts for 2/10s of a percent of the YTD sales. Yet on BGG, as you point out, as their server seems to be down this moment, ranks it at circa 1200. Munchkin, the game itself, not the line, ranks at circa 1600, yet accounts for 14% of our total sales. Remember, that's just the original game, not the line. Deluxe Illuminati is ranked circa 750, yet accounts for around 3% of our sales.

So yes, I can say with a high degree of confidence that BGG ratings do not have a solid relationship to the sales of Steve Jackson Games products.

Originally Posted by Azog

The Russian Campaign has long been considered a wargaming classic, much like Ogre/GEV. However, it has -long- since gone out of print. Or, actually it used to be out of print. L2 Design Group revised and reprinted The Russian Campaign. Now, the original TRC sits at rank 254, and the L2 revision sits at 638, as of this writing.

What can this tell me about sales? What it can tell me is that a lot of people liked TRC, and a lot of people like the L2 revision of TRC. How much of a leap can it be for this to translate into sales for L2?

I don't know; I don't have access to L2's sales records.

Originally Posted by Azog

What it really tells me is that the L2 Design Group saw that people loved the product, and places like ConSim World and BGG reflected that. But they knew that they couldn't just re-release the older version. They knew that by taking a loved but out-of-print product, bringing it's rules, mechanics, and art up to date, that they could sell this to a modern market, and capitalize on the buzz that this out-of-print title has generated.

I agree. In particular, I agree that Ogre/G.E.V should not be simply re-released. The rules should be clarified and unified, the components should be given an upgrade, and a line of support should be planned. However, there's only one man I'd trust to do that job, and he's also the designer creating Munchkin. (He's also wearing the Editor in Chief hat, and sharing duties with the Production Manager/Print Buyer.)

Look, Ogre is SJ's baby, his first release. Ross, our Sales Manager, is a lead-pusher from way back. My first major responsibility in the company was Ogre. We'd all love to see Ogre (and Car Wars) returned to print, and succeed in a major way. However, the numbers (our income vs. our staffing levels) simply aren't in support of such a move at the moment.

[jahn]

Originally Posted by Azog

I wrote this letter as one last plea to SJ Games and crew to jump on the bandwagon and harvest some money. The Munchkin popularity won't last forever. Ogre could be a profitable again, but not in the form that it was last published, which is almost identical to the form that it was published in 1984.

The market won't bear a game with sub-standard components, regardless of how well the rules are written. It will, however, pour buckets of money onto a product with good components and well-written rules.

Don't blame Ogre's failure to sell on the game itself, blame it on the cheapness of the package. And what I was suggesting was that they change the package...

And the game will sell.

Azog

The question is: will it sell better than Munchkin or GURPS? Because with the resources they currently have, SJG will probably have to drop one of those lines in order to properly re-launch Ogre. Unfortunately, Board Game Geek is not market research and not a reliable indicator of what people will buy.

Right now Munchkin and GURPS have lots of sales and SJG sees that continuing at least for the forseeable future. When that changes, resurrecting Ogre or Car Wars will be one option. But at this time (even though I love Car Wars) I don't think it'd be a good idea for SJG to go down that road.

[Hex]

Originally Posted by Azog

I'm not going to touch this.

Anybody else see the irony here?

I wrote this letter as one last plea to SJ Games and crew to jump on the bandwagon and harvest some money. The Munchkin popularity won't last forever. Ogre could be a profitable again, but not in the form that it was last published, which is almost identical to the form that it was published in 1984.

The market won't bear a game with sub-standard components, regardless of how well the rules are written. It will, however, pour buckets of money onto a product with good components and well-written rules.

Don't blame Ogre's failure to sell on the game itself, blame it on the cheapness of the package. And what I was suggesting was that they change the package...

And the game will sell.

Azog

I take it you work in the industry, have a business degree and a intimate knowledge of how games are produced and have access to SJgames financial records.

Just curious. But, don't you think SJgames would jump on a "cash cow" if it was a simplistic as you put it. Or, if there was this great demand?

I understand your frustration but read the annual report carefully. Especially the part about having enough staff to allocate responsibility. It is hard to put a significant amount of time to a line that failed...on a hope...people will buy it. I have a soft spot for OGRE because it was one of the first simulation games I bought. But, even if they rolled out a new improved version, you can count me as one who would not buy it. Now Car Wars on the other hand...

[Azog]

Paul,

As for the first couple of points - it's difficult to compare an in-print game, in a modern market, versus an out-of-print game, that outlasted the market that it was successful in, and failed in the market that came after it. That's all I'm going to say about that.

I guess it's time to pack it in. I've been holding out for Ogre/GEV, and maybe it's time to just accept the bitter truth. Times have changed, and maybe it's time I've changed with them. New games are on the horizon.

But, Paul, at least consider this; maybe Steve should consider putting a version of the rules up online, maybe something a bit denser than Ogre Lite. Whenever I get the question from someone, "where can I get a copy of Ogre?", at least I can point them somewhere.

Sincerely,
Azog

[mmaestro]

IIRC, didn't Paul say at one point a couple of months ago that we might well be seeing an edition out on e23? I'm working from my PDA right now, so I'm not going to deal with the nightmare that would be trying to find the old entry on the forums, but someone at a desktop might want to try a search (as an aside, for those who're waiting for the new material -mostly maps- I'd promised, we moved house at short notice and I'm on my PDA because the cable company's techs put their feet through our ceiling multiple times, so it may be a while).

I maintain my opinion that the way forward for the Ogre line is a licencing agreement with a giant like Hasbro and an attempt to market and push an Ogre set in a similar way to Heroscape is the way forward. If the agreement was written well, SJ could probably try and revise the rules himself and let them deal with new art for a board and miniatures, although I'd understand not wanting to let go of the product, I think that a system with rules as simple as Ogre would succeed in the mass market perhaps even better than it does in the hobby games market. Also, apocalyptic is big right now, as I'm sure everyone has noticed.