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Old 12-20-2006, 02:09 AM   #1
Wicked Lurker
 
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Default The thing between [0] and [1]

..or in other words: (how) do you handle people with Skills better than default but worse than [1]* in your games?

*A single point here can make a difference of up to 5 skill levels.
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Last edited by Wicked Lurker; 12-21-2006 at 01:35 AM. Reason: removed "at VH Skills"
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Old 12-20-2006, 02:15 AM   #2
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Default Re: The thing between [0] and [1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wicked Lurker
..or in other words: (how) do you handle people with Skills better than default but worse than [1]* in your games?

*A single point here can make a difference of up to 5 skill levels (at VH Skills).
Well the Background perk I yoinked from Dr. Kromm, a [1] Perk which gives any related skill to the background a +1 to their Defaults [but not trained skills]
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Old 12-20-2006, 02:24 AM   #3
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Default Re: The thing between [0] and [1]

Well, a single point can make the difference between "Attribute+0" and "No Default", even... I haven't run into this problem, but I would say that if someone's received training in a skill, but not enough to justify 1 point, I'd give them an extra +2 bonus when not in stress, and doing something similar to what they've practiced. Sort of a familiarity thing. In a stressful situation, they'll just have to live with the harsh default.

(Not that I don't find the defaults harsh. Consider, for example, how hard it is to whack someone in the head with a hammer from behind, when he's not expecting it, and you have time to prepare - this has come up. Sounds easy, right? If you can hit a nail, you can hit someone's head? Well, you take DX-5 for not having a point in Axe/Mace, another -5 for trying to aim for the head, and you get +3 for evaluating him beforehand and +4 for taking an all-out attack. Congratulations, you're working on DX-3 for that one blow.)
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Old 12-20-2006, 02:57 AM   #4
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Default Re: The thing between [0] and [1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wicked Lurker
*A single point here can make a difference of up to 5 skill levels (at VH Skills).
No. There is no very hard skill that has a default of attribute-8.
I am only aware of one skills for which there is a difference of 5 levels: Physician, which has a default of IQ-7 and investing one point gets you IQ-2.
But normally, the difference is 4 levels regardless of difficulty level for skills that allow a default at all.
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Old 12-20-2006, 03:01 AM   #5
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Default Re: The thing between [0] and [1]

Oh, and to answer your question: ;-)

Allowing half skill points for a skill level of 2 below that which you get when investing 1 point seems to be a common houserule.
I even allow quarter skill points.

Here's the relevant section from my houserules in German (since if I recall correctly, you're German):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kampagnenbeschreibung Nikolai
● Die kleinste CP-Einheit sind viertel CP: Es kann weniger als 1 CP in Fertigkeiten investiert werden, bei denen der Charakter ein Default hat, was höchstens 5 Punkte unter dem Wert liegt, den er bei Investition von einem CP in der Fertigkeit erhält.[1] Pro viertel CP unter 1 ist der Wert der Fertigkeit um eins niedriger als bei Investition des vollen CP.[2] Solche viertel CP können auch durch 50 Hours of Learning (statt 200 Hours of Learning für einen ganzen CP, siehe B292-294) erworben werden.
Beispiel: 1 CP in der HT/Average Fertigkeit Hiking ergibt einen Fertigkeitswert von HT-1. 0,75 CP ergeben HT-2, 0,5 CP HT-3 und 0,25 CP HT-4. Der Default-Wert ohne investierte CP ist HT-5.
So kann nach Charaktererschaffung auch besser das langsame Erlernen einer Fertigkeit simuliert werden.
Als „erfüllte Voraussetzung“ für ein anderes Trait gemäß B169 oder einen Beruf gemäß B516 gilt die Fertigkeit aber in jedem Fall erst, wenn mindestens ein ganzer CP investiert wurde (selbst wenn schon weniger als ein ganzer CP zur Erreichung des als Voraussetzung nötigen Fertigkeitswerts ausreichen sollte). Auch die „special benefits“ einer Fertigkeit gemäß B173 gibt es wie offiziell erst, wenn mindestens 1 CP in eine Fertigkeit investiert wurde.
„Improving Skills from Default“ (B173) funktioniert ebenfalls wie offiziell – CP-Ersparnisse gibt es also erst, wenn das Default auf dem Wert ist, den man bei Investition eines ganzen CP erhält.
Außer bei den spezifizierten Fertigkeiten mit weniger als einem CP gibt es keine Verwendungsmöglichkeit für viertel CP. Bei Rundungen der CP-Kosten von Traits wird wie offiziell immer auf ganze CP gerundet. Allerdings können 50 Hours of Learning immer in 0,25 CP umgewandelt werden. Dies hat jedoch nur dann einen spieltechnischen Effekt, wenn die Differenz zur zur CP-Zahl, die zur Verbesserung des Traits nötig ist, vom CP-Guthaben gezahlt wird.

[1] Die meisten Fertigkeiten haben ein Default, das um 4 Punkte unter dem Wert liegt, das bei Investition eines CP erreicht wird.
[2] Sofern dies besser ist als das Default, sonst gilt das Default.
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Old 12-20-2006, 03:47 AM   #6
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Default Re: The thing between [0] and [1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by roguebfl
Well the Background perk I yoinked from Dr. Kromm, a [1] Perk which gives any related skill to the background a +1 to their Defaults [but not trained skills]
Ah, this is definitely very useful.
It can not model someone who has dabbled in a (single) skill for a bit, but does not justify a full point in it though..

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelSammallahti
I'd give them an extra +2 bonus when not in stress, and doing something similar to what they've practiced. Sort of a familiarity thing. In a stressful situation, they'll just have to live with the harsh default.
Hmm.. sounds quite good. It's quite simple and +2 is somewhere in the middle of things.. I'll have to test that one. Not sure if I'd drop the +2 under stress though.

How would you justify this increase then (in bookkeeping terms)?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolai
There is no very hard skill that has a default of attribute-8.
I just interpolated from the other defaults and didn't actually check- thanks. Strike the "VH".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolai
Allowing half skill points for a skill level of 2 below that which you get when investing 1 point seems to be a common houserule.
I even allow quarter skill points.

Here's the relevant section from my houserules in German (since if I recall correctly, you're German):
Quite close, I'm Austrian.

Using quarter CPs in connection with 50 hours and -1 to skill level per 0.25 CP below [1] down to default sounds quite good.
Do you use that one in your games? How well does it work?

I am somewhat reluctant to use fractions of points since the 4e completely stays away from that now. Hey, but if it works well I'll use that.
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Old 12-20-2006, 03:54 AM   #7
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Default Re: The thing between [0] and [1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wicked Lurker
..or in other words: (how) do you handle people with Skills better than default but worse than [1]* in your games?

*A single point here can make a difference of up to 5 skill levels (at VH Skills).
Well if they are NPCs I give them the skill level I want them to have. Since I'm not going to calculate their point totals anyway, it doesn't matter. The question has never arisen with a PC, but if a player wanted, for some roleplaying reason to play a character with such a peculiar value, then I would tell them that he can set the actual value as low as he prefers without me objecting at all as long he doesn't set it higher than what he's paid for. At any subsequent time, he could then raise the skill to the full paid-for value without a further investment of time or experience points unless of course he got incompetence as a quirk.

Last edited by David Johnston; 12-20-2006 at 03:59 AM.
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Old 12-20-2006, 04:05 AM   #8
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Default Re: The thing between [0] and [1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wicked Lurker
How would you justify this increase then (in bookkeeping terms)?
Oh, I wouldn't record any of it. It's just something I'd hand out if a player asked for it. As for dropping the bonus under stress, I like to think that 1 point represents precisely that level of training at which you know what to do in a risky situation. Less than that one point, and you have some superficial idea but when it comes time to apply your knowledge, you realize you're not ready.

Personal opinion: I don't like half-points, because there's a slippery slope aspect to them. If I can spend half a point on a skill, can I buy a partial level of Lifting ST, or round a modified advantage's final cost to the nearest half-point, or not drop the fractions from my Basic Move, or spend a half-point on Cultural Familiarity (Chinese) because of all the movies I've seen... I say, forget about it. It's a discrete scale for a reason, to make all our lives easier.
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Old 12-20-2006, 04:11 AM   #9
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Default Re: The thing between [0] and [1]

I houserule that using hours of study/practice instead of CP fractions, based on the assumption that the first three levels of a skill acquired spending CPs follow a fixed progression:

1° level (Attribute-X) [1]
2° level (Attribute-X+1) [2] (1° level doubled)
3° level (Attribute-X+2) [4] (2° level doubled)

I expanded that table allowing to acquire skills below (Attribute-X) with hours of study, following the same progression. Since 1 CP = 200 hours of study...

(Attribute-X+2) [4] = 800 hours
(Attribute-X+1) [2] = 400 hours
(Attribute-X) [1] = 200 hours
(Attribute-X-1) = 100 hours
(Attribute-X-2) = 50 hours
(Attribute-X-3) = 25 hours
(Attribute-X-4) = 12 hours
...and so on, stopping the progression before reaching your best default level.

So, for example, Acrobatics (DX/Hard), default DX-6, and DX 11 gives the following progression:

Level 11 = DX+0 [4] = 800 hours
Level 10 = DX-1 [2] = 400 hours
Level 9 = DX-2 [1] = 200 hours
Level 8 = DX-3 = 100 hours
Level 7 = DX-4 = 50 hours
Level 6 = DX-5 = 25 hours
Level 5 = DX-6 = Default
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Old 12-20-2006, 04:15 AM   #10
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Default Re: The thing between [0] and [1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wicked Lurker
Using quarter CPs in connection with 50 hours and -1 to skill level per 0.25 CP below [1] down to default sounds quite good.
Do you use that one in your games?
Well, yes, I use everything in my houserules in my campaign... ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wicked Lurker
How well does it work?
It works nicely. The only downside is having to deal with quarter CP. But that doesn't bother me.
It especially comes into play because I often count adventuring time as hours of learning for certain skills (for instance Survival or Hiking) at an appropriate conversion factor. If the PCs didn't have that skill before, they can slowly increase it that way instead of waiting for ages before they have acquired the 200 hours of learning for a full CP.
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