Code of Honor, Intolerance, Fanaticism - freebie points?

[ADAXL]

I recently stumbled over the writeup fo the SS raven divsion trooper in Infinite Worlds (page 193). He gets Code of Honor (SS) and Intolerance (non-Aryans), and a pick from a load of other nasty Disadvantages such as Bloodlust, Bully, Fanaticism and Callous.

Code of Honor (SS) (page 179) already includes brutal behavior and total devotion to the Reich. Intolerance (non-Aryans) seems like ten free points. Callous is gift points. Do you really want to give an all-out Nazi thug extra points for being unkind? The same goes for Bloodlust, Bully and Fanaticism.

WWII introduced the concept of an extreme Code of Honor (in short, you get 5 Points extra for extreme devotion to your warrior code). This should fit better.

I would limit the SS trooper to Code of Honor (normal or extreme) and five more points for extra nastyness, such as an OPH ("Brutal even by Nazi standards"). A Disadvantage worth 10 Points or more should be permitted only if the trooper can get into serious conflict with his Code of Honor. He could take Fanaticism if he routinely denounces comrades for insufficient political fervor or if he ignores orders out of aryan arrogance. He could take Intolerance (non-Aryans) if he is supposed to interact with the (non-aryan) locals without causing a fight every day. Given Nazi attitudes, a trooper like this would be executed before the week was over.

[zorg]

Most of these disads also give Reaction Penalties. Someone who's a Fanatic will be disliked, if he's callous on top of it, he'll be shunned even more, and if he's a bloodlusty Bully, then he won't have many friends (probably not even within the SS).
Remember that Callous penalizes certain skills.

With all these disads taken together, a character will be disliked, incompetent in certain areas, and limited in his behaviour.

[Harald B]

Seconded. Keep in mind that Callous and Bully will apply fully to his behaviour towards fellow nazis and german civilians.
That being said, the combination of Fanaticism with Code of Honor (SS) does seem like an awful case of double-dipping though. Especially since Fanaticism states that "If the object of Fanaticism demands obedience to a code of behaviour or loyalty to a leader, you oblige wilingly and unquestioningly."

[Moonsword]

Except for the fact that they're separate disadvantages and cover different areas. They also have different effects on the character.

Code of Honor, in this case, covers following orders and the SS policy manual. Fanaticism means his cause receives exceptional devotion, above and beyond what is represented in Code of Honor, and that this devotion extends to a wide variety of unsavory actions (this should be somewhat frightening when you consider what the SS policy was). Intolerance governs the character's reactions to others (which the Code of Honor does not; that reflects, as I noted, the chain of command). Bloodlust is exceptional desire to kill an opponent in a fight; while Intolerance and, to a lesser degree, Fanaticism both have effects similar to this, they are not universal; Bloodlust is. Callous means that the character has little to no consideration for the emotions of anyone, including his allies. Bully indicates that the character derives pleasure from the pain of others, albeit not in the same way as a Sadist.

As the previous poster said, they also have significant reaction penalties.

Remember that the various disadvantages stack; none of them, by themselves, represent the full extent of psychological traits that the author intended to convey. Your average skinhead has Intolerance and quite possibly Fanaticism; he does not have Code of Honor (SS) and does not act as a disciplined soldier on the battlefield nor does he follow military procedure. An intolerant person may be more than usually willing to kill opponents in battle if they fall into the group he hates. A person with Bloodlust applies this to everyone (and almost certainly will kill those he is Intolerant of).

EDIT: This post was composed in response to the original post and was started before two of the responses were made.

[ADAXL]

I agree with the comments on Callous by zorg. Given the penalities on teaching skill, it can indeed be somethng different.

I stil hold my ground on the other Disadvantages. The Nazi belifes were racist and brutal, so Intolerance is already part of Nazi Fanaticism and Code of Honor (SS). A Nazi who bullies his own comrades might deserve some points, but only if his ways fully collide with military discipline. "Ordinary" nazi-style harshness is already accounted for. Military organisations demand discipline and obedience, which leaves little space for other Disadvantages worth 10 or 15 Points, unless those SS troopers disregard orders out of personal belief or report comrades to the Gestapo for trivial offences.

If anybody really earns all those points by roleplaying, his own comrades will shoot him five minutes into the game and his commanding officer will give them a medal for doing in that bastard.

[Kaldrin]

Originally Posted by ADAXL

Code of Honor (SS) (page 179) already includes brutal behavior and total devotion to the Reich. Intolerance (non-Aryans) seems like ten free points. Callous is gift points. Do you really want to give an all-out Nazi thug extra points for being unkind? The same goes for Bloodlust, Bully and Fanaticism.

I think you're getting hung up on the fact that it's the SS. If it was any other state you wouldn't be reading into it at all.

Ruthless just means you won't let little things like morals interfere with dealing with the enemies of the state. That's where it stops. If you take that disadvantage alone without the other stuff, you'd be perfectly fine to hang out with on a Saturday night... unless I was an enemy of the state. You'd also go to war and die for the state without a second thought. Essentially you'd be a super patriot of the state.

Don't let your own prejudices interfere with the definition of things.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Harald B

...
That being said, the combination of Fanaticism with Code of Honor (SS) does seem like an awful case of double-dipping though. Especially since Fanaticism states that "If the object of Fanaticism demands obedience to a code of behavior or loyalty to a leader, you oblige willingly and unquestioningly."

Concurrence. If the belief systems (of CoH and Fan.) are the same, you wouldn't (or shouldn't, at least) allow full points for both disads. ITC, just give the points for Fanaticism, and maybe allow a quirk (believes he is acting honorably) or some such. If the belief systems overlap, but are not exactly the same, my method has always been to discount the cheaper disad to reflect only the unique limitations it imposes upon the character.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

It sounds like you guys aren't giving Fanaticism and Intolerance the depths it needs.

The distinction between a knight with a CoH Chivalry vs. a knight with CoH Chivalry, Christian Fanaticism and Intolerance to non-Christians is so massive as to not even have any comparison.

Having a CoH is something which both allies and opponents may respect.
Being an Intolerant Fanatic is something which opponents will despise and which even allies may be wary of.

[celtredleg]

Not all SS men where equal. Some where more intense, so less. By useinf more or less disads, you can show this degree of nastyness, rather than a stereotype that makes good cartoons and cheap movies.