Electrolaser defenses?

~~I, Cylon~~ · 09-01-2006, 06:49 PM

Since electrolasers may be common weapons in some GURPS genres what are likely defenses against them? If they're going to be used in a world setting, it's simple logic that someone will try to make a defense against them.

One thing about electrolasers I've noticed is they have no penetration, really. If they hit a sheet of cardboard, or even a sheet of paper or anything that blocks the beam, they are stopped cold, basically. Anything that stops a low power laser pulse, like a kleenex, will stop an electrolaser, so no shooting thru any sort of obstruction, even a plywood wall you could put your fist thru.

As such, I'd imagine a cardboard shield could be a useful defense, or a mirror that could deflect the beam would work as a shield, especially since glass is an insulator.

What kind of defenses are likely in a world where electrolasers are common? Would rubberized clothing work? What about an overcoat with conductive fibers in it meant to channel the EL discharge into special insulated capacitors, or simply a metal chain that drags the ground and grounds the EL shot?

Whenever there's a new form of attack, someone will at least try to make a new form of defense, so if electrolasers are common in a game world, what defenses ae likely?

KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads · 09-01-2006, 06:54 PM

Artificial mist would be the death of electrolasers, since electricity would dissipate quickly.

Captain-Captain · 09-01-2006, 06:57 PM

If the mist was thick enough it'd stop the laser part of the attack...

lwcamp · 09-01-2006, 07:51 PM

A thin covering of aluminum foil, or any conductive armor, cover, clothing, or coating will act as complete protection. The current will simply short across the conductive surface.

Since the beam will probably be fairly high frequency AC current (but not too high, you want the current to penetrate deep enough to affect nerves) insulators will not work too well: you would get capacitative coupling to the beams and current would pulse back and forth under the insulated clothing or armor.

Mirrors might not offer much protection. The two proposals I've heard of involve either ultraviolet beams or ultrashort pulsed self focused beams to ionize the air. The first will be absorbed by the mirror's glass, the second will just ionize the surface of the glass. In neither case will the beam be reflected (and in any event, reflecting the beams would not protect against the current unless one beam was reflected across the other, which would short out the current). If the mirror is conductive (an aluminized or silvered mirror, for example), that will protect you, as above. Otherwise it is just another insulator.

Mist would do nothing to dissipate the current over the timescales involved. However, it would attenuate the beams, which would reduce the amount of ionization in the air and thus reduce the current the beams could carry.

You are correct that a thin barrier that is well separated from the target would provide complete protection.

Luke

~~Akahige~~ · 09-01-2006, 09:04 PM

Not to drag this off-topic, but my paranoia requires me to ask: In the coming years, when armies and police start using sonic stunners, electro-lasers, and goodness knows what else, how will ordinary folks fend off these attacks?

What other nasty things are being developed to make people faint, puke, wet themselves, or what-have-you in the name of maintaining peace and order? (No, really, I'd like to know -- and know how to resist.)

William · 09-01-2006, 11:03 PM

Quote:

What other nasty things are being developed to make people faint, puke, wet themselves, or what-have-you in the name of maintaining peace and order? (No, really, I'd like to know -- and know how to resist.)

(My best advice would be to not take part in violent protests. Do you anticipate being in many situations where law enforcement officers would feel concerned enough about your actions to think they need to repulse you?)

But seriously, I'd be interested in knowing about developments on the non-lethal and less-than-lethal fronts too. I never did buy High Tech for 3e, but I certainly want it for 4e, and hope to see plenty of such devices in there; gradations of force between "stand back" and "nightstick" are a real benefit to law enforcement officers, as well as the people they face off with. I own GURPS Cops, and it discusses the legal and ethical concerns around police use of force; basically, police attempt to keep a situation under control by using the minimum necessary force for a given situation. When you have more levels of force available to you, you can escalate less and still respond effectively.

Sure, NLWs have potential for abuse -- heck, I saw a video just recently about cops misusing plastic bullets at a protest. But a bad cop with a pellet gun in his hands would be a bad cop without one, in which case he'd probably have a rifle. I've also seen a video about a really dedicated pacifist: he volunteered himself to test NLWs. Fairly safe -- after calculations and animal testing, they're pretty sure he won't be permanently injured -- but it still hurt. He did it to save lives, because he knew that's what NLWs do. When all's said and done, plastic handcuffs and beanbag rounds mean we're a long way from the 1960s, and that's all to the good as far as I'm concerned -- in real life and in RP.

Quoth the Malakite of Novalis, "Who do you think invented capsaicin, mortal?" ;^)

William · 09-01-2006, 11:18 PM

For reference, presently discussed in GURPS 4e terms in Basic are grenades for smoke, tear gas, and stun grenades, as well as a stun gun, and, at lower tech levels, the lasso and net. No mention of rubber rounds or any of the exotics.

GURPS Cops additionally covers, in 3e terms, pepper spray, various less-than-lethal rounds (baton, beanbag, pellet), and some other police equipment. (I really do like Cops, it's a great book about realistic confrontation on the scales that modern city-dwellers can actually experience. Played a cop in a game for a bit, very satisfying experience.)

Flyndaran · 09-02-2006, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akahige

Not to drag this off-topic, but my paranoia requires me to ask: In the coming years, when armies and police start using sonic stunners, electro-lasers, and goodness knows what else, how will ordinary folks fend off these attacks?

What other nasty things are being developed to make people faint, puke, wet themselves, or what-have-you in the name of maintaining peace and order? (No, really, I'd like to know -- and know how to resist.)

There's microwave area denial. It sends out just enough of a broad beam to trick the skin into thinking that it's on fire, but not enough to cause injury.
It's U.S. military weaponry for now.

William · 09-02-2006, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

There's microwave area denial. It sends out just enough of a broad beam to trick the skin into thinking that it's on fire, but not enough to cause injury.
It's U.S. military weaponry for now.

Okay... hmm, I'd stat that as Affliction 1 (Irritant: (/Severe/Terrible Pain, + 20/40/60%), Area Effect and Range large enough to handle the stats)... hmm. But it only lasts while the device is on and aimed in that area, whereas the Affliction is "fire and forget" and then lasts for several minutes... well, sod. Isn't there a "Reducd Duration" limitation?

~~Akahige~~ · 09-02-2006, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William

My best advice would be to not take part in violent protests. Do you anticipate being in many situations where law enforcement officers would feel concerned enough about your actions to think they need to repulse you?

There's an increasing trend in the U.S. -- if you don't bend over at the slightest hint of police saber-rattling, you get hammered. Even if you believe that people should be subject to government authority, there's still a huge number of cases where people get abused with no provocation besides demanding that cops follow proper procedure with them.

We're gradually drifting into a police-state mindset, where nobody seems to care when the police get the wrong address and tazer an innocent person, as long as it wasn't lethal. And if it was, then the person obviously "deserved what they got" for having the audacity to question/resist the police.

My point is that we no longer have to be "violent protesters" to attract the wrath of police and government agents. That's why I want to know what "pacification devices" are on the horizon, and how to resist them. GURPS is just a convenient medium for discussing the technology, since the writers seem to keep on top of such scientific developments.

09-01-2006, 06:49 PM	#1
~~I, Cylon~~ Banned Join Date: Aug 2006	Electrolaser defenses? Since electrolasers may be common weapons in some GURPS genres what are likely defenses against them? If they're going to be used in a world setting, it's simple logic that someone will try to make a defense against them. One thing about electrolasers I've noticed is they have no penetration, really. If they hit a sheet of cardboard, or even a sheet of paper or anything that blocks the beam, they are stopped cold, basically. Anything that stops a low power laser pulse, like a kleenex, will stop an electrolaser, so no shooting thru any sort of obstruction, even a plywood wall you could put your fist thru. As such, I'd imagine a cardboard shield could be a useful defense, or a mirror that could deflect the beam would work as a shield, especially since glass is an insulator. What kind of defenses are likely in a world where electrolasers are common? Would rubberized clothing work? What about an overcoat with conductive fibers in it meant to channel the EL discharge into special insulated capacitors, or simply a metal chain that drags the ground and grounds the EL shot? Whenever there's a new form of attack, someone will at least try to make a new form of defense, so if electrolasers are common in a game world, what defenses ae likely? Last edited by I, Cylon; 09-01-2006 at 06:54 PM.

09-01-2006, 06:57 PM	#3
Captain-Captain Join Date: Aug 2004	Re: Electrolaser defenses? If the mist was thick enough it'd stop the laser part of the attack... __________________ ...().0...0() .../..........\ -/......O.....\- ...VVVVVVV ..^^^^^^^ A clock running two hours slow has the correct time zero times a day.

09-01-2006, 07:51 PM	#4
lwcamp Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The plutonium rich regions of Washington State	Re: Electrolaser defenses? A thin covering of aluminum foil, or any conductive armor, cover, clothing, or coating will act as complete protection. The current will simply short across the conductive surface. Since the beam will probably be fairly high frequency AC current (but not too high, you want the current to penetrate deep enough to affect nerves) insulators will not work too well: you would get capacitative coupling to the beams and current would pulse back and forth under the insulated clothing or armor. Mirrors might not offer much protection. The two proposals I've heard of involve either ultraviolet beams or ultrashort pulsed self focused beams to ionize the air. The first will be absorbed by the mirror's glass, the second will just ionize the surface of the glass. In neither case will the beam be reflected (and in any event, reflecting the beams would not protect against the current unless one beam was reflected across the other, which would short out the current). If the mirror is conductive (an aluminized or silvered mirror, for example), that will protect you, as above. Otherwise it is just another insulator. Mist would do nothing to dissipate the current over the timescales involved. However, it would attenuate the beams, which would reduce the amount of ionization in the air and thus reduce the current the beams could carry. You are correct that a thin barrier that is well separated from the target would provide complete protection. Luke

09-01-2006, 09:04 PM	#5
~~Akahige~~ Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bay City	Re: Electrolaser defenses? Not to drag this off-topic, but my paranoia requires me to ask: In the coming years, when armies and police start using sonic stunners, electro-lasers, and goodness knows what else, how will ordinary folks fend off these attacks? What other nasty things are being developed to make people faint, puke, wet themselves, or what-have-you in the name of maintaining peace and order? (No, really, I'd like to know -- and know how to resist.) Last edited by Akahige; 09-01-2006 at 10:01 PM.

09-01-2006, 11:18 PM	#7
William Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan	Re: Electrolaser defenses? For reference, presently discussed in GURPS 4e terms in Basic are grenades for smoke, tear gas, and stun grenades, as well as a stun gun, and, at lower tech levels, the lasso and net. No mention of rubber rounds or any of the exotics. GURPS Cops additionally covers, in 3e terms, pepper spray, various less-than-lethal rounds (baton, beanbag, pellet), and some other police equipment. (I really do like Cops, it's a great book about realistic confrontation on the scales that modern city-dwellers can actually experience. Played a cop in a game for a bit, very satisfying experience.)